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China's GDP would drop alot if they played fair
Deepspace:
Let me help you shorten your bloviated posts. I'll rewrite the ones @kilosqrd 16 and @stopgap19. I'll eliminate all the condescension, name calling, undocumented "facts", blaming and BS. Here's what they would look like with the above eliminated.
@17 Kilosqrd
@19 stopgap
:))
Haha ... Andrew Jackson! That is a damn good comparison!
Although, the degenerate lout the American idiotocracy just installed as their head clown almost makes Jackson look like a choirboy.
Chauncey Devega over at Salon today came up with a fairly comprehensive description -- based on the public record -- of the fool now entrusted with the nuclear launch codes, not to mention all other aspects of our lives:
http://www.salon.com/2017/01/21/congratulations-america-you-did-it-an-actual-fascist-is-now-your-official-president/
Way to go, all you bigots, haters, liars, and low-information voters, gullible enough to actually believe you were doing something religious and/or patriotic in filling out your ballots!
It would be so easy to add even more negatives to Chauncey's long list; however, in all fairness, here's a list of his positives:
...mmm... Gawdamn, that's a hard one! I was going to include his family members, like Hillary did; but let's face it, they're all shallow creeps too -- apples from the tree -- notwithstanding the poor little, bewildered kid stuck in the middle of it all.
Well, I suppose there's a few hopeful positives anyway:
1. He's too emotionally and mentally incapable, belligerent, greedy, insane, and just plain dumb to handle the pressures of the job, so he could be impeached before he really f--ks things up "bigly."
2. He's old, out of shape, and stuffed to his puffy gills with junk food, so he could just up and ... er, step down and retire for the sake of his health.
3. Sorry, ran out of positives.
Free trade agreements have always greedily left out one key item...The wealthiest country should be mandated to set a living minimum wage for it's own workers with all other countries in the agreement required to match that wage dollar for dollar for their own workers. Of course that defeats the whole purpose of slave labor now doesn't it.
Trump's own people are comparing him to Andrew Jackson.... no argument here...trail of tears and the panic of 1837!...pretty damn good comparison. However Trump's claim to a populous president like Jackson is absurd. Let's get the facts straight...he got less than 25% of the total eligible vote...and when you throw in the cross check election fraud he lost the popular vote by well over four million...populous my ass.
I think it all comes down to money in politics. When Presidential and Congressional candidates have to raise billions and billions between them to stay in the game, they are more beholden to the interests of their corporate donors than they are to the interests of the people. That attitude translates into Executive initiatives as well as into Congressional legislation.
Obama and Hillary are "moderate" (I hate that term!) Democrats and are both guilty as hell of selling out -- not quite as much as Republicans, for sure, but enough that it came back to bite them in the ass. By the time they tumbled to the realization that the mood of the electorate had shifted far away from the normal paradigm of political calculation, it was too late to back peddle. Trump is a dummy, but he was at least smart enough to steal Bernie's talking points and run with them -- not that he will, or can, fulfill any of them.
Bernie Sanders proved that there is a different path to follow, in spite of the corporate-friendly money rules of the game set forth in the contemptible decisions by a right-wing Supreme Court. He had a simple message that he stuck to no matter what and kept repeating forcefully and loudly. The inarguable truth of it resonated with everyday people, who gladly donated to his campaign. He almost made it despite every imaginable force arrayed against him -- his own chosen Party, his opposing Party, the Hillary campaign, corporate media, and the entire right-wing blogosphere swamp of lies. Alas. At least he's still in the Senate speaking truth to power.
If Trump and the Republicans overplay their hand and bicker among themselves, creating their own self-imposed gridlock, if Democrats wake up and learn to fight back as a minority Party like the Republicans did, if they can stick to the simple truth of Republican depravity and frame a more positive message to break through the media sound barrier, and if American voters get serious about democracy, do their homework, and sort out the truth from the lies, it's highly probable for the Democrats to regain at least a Senate majority in two years.
Then, they could block all the crap sure to excrete from the House and prevent it from reaching Drumpf's dirty little hands, which can barely hold a pen. Let the immature pervert tweet away in the middle of the night as much as he wants.
That's a lot of "ifs" ...
Protest is a statement. It is not resistance. Regardless, liberals lost. They did this by more deeply dividing the proverbial "masses," splitting us apart by class. In a nutshell, they divided and conquered themselves.
Many knew that the years of the Obama administration represented our last chance to turn things around. Out in the real world, not everyone can work, and there aren't jobs for all. 20 years ago, the US stripped our poor of the most basic human rights (UN's UDHR) of food and shelter. As the overall life expectancy of the US poor fell below that of every developed nation, liberals maintained a lively pep rally for the middle class (occasional pat on the head to min. wage workers...). There's not much left to say.
Well said, Johnnie!
Reality bites, but when the truth of things finally breaks out, it's like a dam bursting, washing through the minds of the population. And the negative can become the positive. Throughout history, the greatest changes of fortune in favor of the people have always started from the ground up, never from the top down.
Amen!!
Yeah, it's one of those things that I hate to keep harping on but I'm afraid it could well have been the last opportunity to stop these fascists. Now, with all the power they have, and controlling every branch of the government and media from top to bottom, there may never be another chance.
However, if there ever is another chance, Democrats have to learn from Obama's mistakes and never let these bastards off the hook. The political war does not end with winning an election. A fact that Republicans know all too well with their 24/7 politicking. And with their Congressional investigations, they are particularly good at campaigning on the public dime.
Just as an analogy, if Grant had been Lincoln's top general from the start, the civil war probably would have only lasted a few months. He knew better than winning a battle or two and resting on his laurels. Once the enemy is on the ropes, you don't let up until they are completely beaten to a pulp. And make no mistake, Republicans are the enemy!
This should have not been a secret to Obama as virtually every week of the Bush presidency there was a book exposing their criminal and treasonous conduct. I guess what really bothers me is how or why this was not apparent to Obama and his advisors? There has to be something else going on here. It can't just be incompetence.
@ stopgap #19:
Yes, there is no denying that Obama absolutely did not live up to his obvious mandate to hold the Bush Administration accountable for blowing up the Middle East, militarizing America, and tanking the world economy. I've read a lot of what you've written before and am largely in agreement with your take on things.
My huuuge problem with Kilosqrd and certain others, however, is that they like to deliberately isolate one period of history and take it out of context to insinuate that the long arch of fascism is all the fault of the Democrats, as if history began on inauguration day, January 20, 2009, when Obama inherited the whole happy mess from the Republican binge party.
That is partisanship at its worst. Had he responded to my previous description of the widespread, ongoing fascism in present-day America with any sense of fair-minded balance and fleshed it out a bit in the proper context, I wouldn't have laid into him so heavily, and, perhaps, we might have had a more constructive exchange. I just don't have much patience, obviously, with bumper-sticker trolls who twist history to further a false narrative.
I'm no Obama apologist, but I do feel he has a good heart and merely fell victim to the unimaginable pressures of the military, the CIA, FBI, NSA, the rest of the fascist alphabet soup, and, of course, Wall Street -- as most Presidents do. Nonetheless, since he had so many people who had his back, he could have, and should have, resisted the onslaught more effectively.
In fact, back in the day, I was very active in opposing his natural tendency to seek compromise with hardcore, repugnant Republicans, who continually spurned his advances and made him look foolish. He just was not a good poker player, which was very frustrating to those of us who believed strongly in pushing back hard to accomplish a more progressive agenda during the short window of opportunity that was available. Although he did do a lot of good things that should be applauded, he fell far short, in my opinion, of what he could have accomplished in regards to the really important issues.
The areas where he utterly failed: not holding Wall Street billionaires accountable for the 2008 crash; not holding Bush and Co. accountable for lying us into war; increasing the surveillance state (which is now in Trump's greasy little hands ... my God!); pushing for the goddamn trade deals; continuing the Bush-era transformation of our civilian police forces into quasi-military units; not extracting America from endless resource wars in the Middle East and elsewhere; and not moving more forcefully toward clean energy.
Also, he could have released the intelligence on Russian interference in our electoral process to balance out the endless, one-sided "leaks" against Hillary. And I will forever hold Democrats responsible for not seriously investigating massive, organized, Republican election fraud that goes all the way back to at least the 2000 election, and likely much earlier.
You're absolutely right though; by not holding Wall Street criminals accountable and by not showing the people that politicians are not above the law, Obama set a horrible precedent that ushered in a new dark age in America, and probably across the planet. Of course, this all has to be tempered with the unavoidable fact that the entire Republican establishment -- in concert with a compliant corporate media empire -- blocked this President on everything every chance they got and are just as, or much more, responsible for this sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in.
I'll give the trolls one thing though -- they can make their points, however false, in much shorter bits and bytes...
"Fair Trade," that's what works, and it worked just fine during the fifties and sixties.
This Free Trade BS is unfair trade, and because of the fact that things have been going in the wrong direction for too long where trade is concerned, ever since Nixon, Reagan and Neo-liberals like Bill Clinton, it will take just as long to change our economic standards back where it used to be. It certainly won't happen overnight.
If our government tries to force a quick reversal of our illfounded economic policies, countries like China won't be happy about it. Their economy is totally based on slave labor. If that slave labor is not used, their economy will callapse. China and countries like China have the economy that we build for them out of greed, and such a powerful and evil thing will not die easily.
Americans have been force fed cheap products from China and the like for so long they are finally starting to be sickened by it. Americans have no good paying jobs, no union protections, and are told to be satisfied with the low quality products that they have no other choice but to buy.
President Reagan, the Neo-cons and the greedy Neo-liberals (slave drivers) headed us down this road, too bad it took the general citizenry so long to wake up. Weather it be the owning of slaves or slave wages, the result will always be the same as what happened when the American Civil War began.
Generally speaking, most average Americans on both sides of the aisle seem to be in rough agreement about the corrosive effects of these rapacious trade agreements and China's negative impact on the independence of our economy. However, too many cynical citizens and workers have been burned too many times -- by both parties -- to muster much confidence that a Republican-controlled Congress, hopelessly in the pockets of committed free-traders, will ever allow legislation to hit Trump's desk that might in the slightest erode the power of international mega-corporations or to entice them to move factories back to our soil en masse.
Trump simply has no credibility. His talking points about bringing jobs back sound good and reverberate with the base; nevertheless, his cheesy ties and other chintzy trinkets and baubles are still manufactured offshore. All that flourishing, campaign-style rhetoric simply cannot be trusted or believed in view of the facts on the ground.
The path forward looks even more bleak for the good citizens with a Congress hellbent on dismantling their safety net, health insurance, and retirement prospects. We'll soon find out if this bankrupted "billionaire" is tough enough and smart enough to buck his own party, all his many creditors, and the entire world-wide establishment of international "free" trade on behalf of the lowly American workers. If anyone seriously believes that ... well, he's got a wall to sell 'em too!
Trading among nation is very positive as long as each nation
does not create unemployed workers in their own country.
ct
Can I argue for history? Henry George fought for economic justice 130 years ago. He was once as famous as president U.S. Grant. How did the "neo-liberal" political economists bury him? Why can't we resurrect his ideas of how to tax wealth, rent and income.
Deepspace: I hate to disagree with you but I'm somewhat inclined to agree with Kilogrd on this one. No, it didn't begin with Obama, but he had a unique opportunity to bring it to an end.
I've covered this several times on this site, but again: When Obama was elected in 2008 he virtually had a mandate from the people to demand accountability and bring to justice the Bush administration and all the corporate felons that had bankrupted the country. That was the thing that the people most craved from the new president and what they expected. People wanted to be shown that politicians and the rich were not above the law. Instead, Obama gave them the impression that all politicians are all the same. And if they are all the same...might as well go with the ones you most relate to.
Had he followed through with making these felons and traitors accountable, it's likely that the Congress would not have won by the GOP in 2010 and the Senate in 2014.
Plus things like the Shirley Sherrod and Van Jones and Acorn affairs where Obama failed to show the least bit of guts in defending these people, further alienated many that had crossed over to elect Obama in the first place. The disappointment of voters for this lack of accountability is much of what is still reverberating to this day.
Therefore, he left the door wide open for something like this to happen and of course, Republicans did not miss a beat in charging back into power. Yeah, the Republicans lied and cheated their way to victory, but Obama blew the golden opportunity to bring it to a halt.
Thom, I think your recent interview with Bill Ayers speaks to many aspects of these questions:
((The Big Picture/01-19-2017))
http://www.thomhartmann.com/bigpicture/bill-ayers-demand-impossible
Thom makes a point that demands reflection. China has been weakening the U.S, economy through its business relationships with WalMart and Apple, two of the most successful U.S. corporations and also buying bonds to leverage our national debt -- tell me if I'm wrong on this. The global economy advocated by the neoliberals has not been good for the average American citizen. Treaties like NAFTA and the now discarded TPP not only sent jobs overseas but brought inferior and below standard products to the American consumer. The "New World Order" which would be sustained by the global economy also erodes the freedoms and rights of the individual and leads to a world of a few, elite super-rich haves controlling the lives of the rest of us, as well as a war-ravaged world using have-not soldiers to control the world's resources for the few super-rich. It seems ironic that Trump who on a personal level seems to have little regard for other's rights seems to be on the "right" and supportive side of the average citizen when it comes to the big issues as to who controls the world's wealth and the civil rights of the average American citizen.
How ironic that America's greedy titans of industry spent the last thirty-five years, or so, moving most of our manufacturing base -- "The Wealth of Nations" -- onto the soil of one of our principle geopolitical competitors and potential military enemies to take advantage of low wages and nearly nonexistent pollution regulations, eliminating tens of millions of high-paying American jobs. Now, international corporations -- the crown jewels of (ha ha) "free" trade -- are forced to operate under the thumb and at the mercy of a communist dictatorship that is pushing extreme capitalism beyond the limits that Western CEO's and stock holders anticipated or with which they are comfortable.
The fate of America's economy is now tethered to the whims of a communist politburo full of billionaires with even more real-world economic power than our own home-grown fascist fools. On top of that, since the Chinese can hardly breathe their polluted air any longer, they are highly motivated to convert their (our transplanted) industries to clean energy. They are setting the stage to lead the world's economies in that sector also, potentially creating at least 14 million jobs (the latest aggregate estimate by leading economic think tanks) that could be American jobs if we weren't so enamored with last century's fossil fuel industries.
Nothing is free about free trade.
@ Kilosqrd #16:
Virtually every single time a right-wing troll posts shallow, bumper-sticker, programmed talking points on this forum, they reveal to the world their, apparently, willful ignorance of history and a high degree of naivety and gullibility in their emotional and mental make-up, which has allowed their conditioned minds to be thoroughly manipulated and brainwashed by fascistic punditry, Republican propagandists, the echo chamber of the fringe blogosphere, hate radio, corporate TV, and, more than likely, Fox so-called "news."
To come up with such a half-baked notion and then deliberately make the effort to login and actually type it out for all to see, indicates you are too far down the rabbit hole to effectively communicate on a level that would be constructive for either of us. Your present position and state of mind can only be pitied -- and I mean that in the compassionate sense with all sincerity.
Please, for your own sake and for the good of the country, shed your right-wing skin of fear and hate and ignorance, expand your limited base of knowledge and horizons; then, join the rest of humanity.
Briefly, to respond to your inane comment:
The sweep of modern history that has led to our nation's present sad state of affairs did not begin with Obama, as you well know -- or certainly should! In fact, I will proffer that all of our politicians of all stripes, going back a very long time, were and are just as much victims as the rest of us fools of what Eisenhower described in his original notes for his farewell address as the "military-industrial-Congressional-complex" -- a growing, out-of-control, malevolent beast that is consuming nearly all aspects of our lives and that mocks the original principles upon which our nation was founded.
Furtive fascism serves to benefit the obscenely wealthy leeches who have been around forever, sucking our blood behind the scenes, while bought-and-paid-for politicians come and go like fruit flies on the public stage.
In short, wake up, troll! :-O
I would disagree with your first paragraph. There were many liberals (especially politicians such as Obama/Biden) who strongly objected to Manning's and Wikileaks' action.
For the second paragraph, do you actually equate informing the American public about war crimes and our government's questionable actions with influencing a domestic election?
I supported Wikileaks and its concept: exposing corrupt and objectionable actions from world governments. (I know it also planned to do the same with commercial entities, but I've not seen much there) After this election, however, it will have a lot of work to do to regain my trust.
Deepspace,
And it all happened during the time when a democrat occupied the White House.
K2
Fixed elections, intimidated press, dumb-downed population, one-party rule, extreme wealth disparity, for-profit healthcare, for-profit schools, for-profit prisons filled to the ceilings, for-profit everything, low wages, stingy safety net, broken treaties, rubber bullets, tear gas, freezing water cannons against peaceful protestors, widespread civilian surveillance, soldiers in the streets, Ninja Turtle-look-alike cops, unarmed (perceived) "criminal" minorities gunned down at the slightest provocation, destruction of the environment, poor people fighting rich people wars...
Does anybody still doubt that fascism has already come to America, "wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross?"
Hey flyguy 8650, I guess that's what the slaves said to their masters: "Please don't take away our Free Stuff!" And that's what the laborers say to the your greedy, shit-head, billionaire buddies after they take the best of their lives and toss them away like garbage, after they are done with their years of backbreaking labor.
I really can't tell you how much I despise callous, heartless, turds like you.
I will say you got the president you deserve.
Talk about Republicans playing with fire, I see Giuliani's role in the Comey scandal is finally being exposed.... geeeez what the hell took so long?
I'm trying to recall how many times I posted that we needed NATO to oversee our election over the past couple years???? It looks like the justice department refuses to act on this particular crime....which in turn sends a clear message that election fraud is just fine when it's the billionaire party doing it.
I'm watching Obama leave office with seemingly little concern for the 99% of us who are about to get sodomized by the billionaires. He'll be fine ...no problem man! He made a statement to the effect that things in this country will be OK....for guys like him...you bet! I'll never forgive him for pushing the god damn free trade right along with the republicans in a presidential election year....in fact I'm not forgiving anybody, including members of my own family for voting for the Fascist/billionaire party.
Obama knows what's in those Trump/Putin classified reports and yet he is calmly leaving office...zero outrage over what amounted to a third world election. It seems Stephanie Miller is the only media personality that gets it....the election was a complete fraud and should have been declared invalid. F the smooth transistion of power when it's based on treason.
Our current government is basically about to allow a Russian expansionist dictator to take control of our executive branch, and it's all about oil deals.... sound familiar?
One more time...It probably won't sink in , but I'll try again. When a voter has been lied to and votes based upon that lie, those he voted for are in power to only represent either themselves and or those individuals who fomented the lies to begin with...certainly not those who voted for them. Polls show us all what the true will of the people is. Obama made a giant mistake by thinking republican voters desire what their elected officials legislate for. Compromise is a totally farcical approach when massive misinformation is introduced into the equation of democracy.
Screw it....nobody in power stood up to the Fascist coup...I had hope a CIA employee would leak the info before tomorrow..now we're all fffed!
If you truly want to fight back....Join and participate with anonymous!
@ Hephaestus:
You always ask the most thoughtful and unanswerable questions about the plight of humanity and the condition of the human spirit.
Heehaw! I'm just an Irish horse, so a wee bit o' Guinness in my trough makes life good... :--))
Now and then, however, I like to read the works of different philosophers -- haha, for all the good it does me.
One of my favorites is j. krishnamurti. Here's a quote about belief systems to ponder:
"If we had no belief, what would happen to us? Shouldn't we be very frightened of what might happen? If we had no pattern of action, based on a belief -- either in God, or in communism, or in socialism, or in imperialism, or in some kind of religious formula, some dogma in which we are conditioned -- we should feel utterly lost, shouldn't we? And is not this acceptance of a belief the covering up of that fear -- the fear of being really nothing, of being empty? After all, a cup is useful only when it is empty; and a mind that is filled with beliefs, with dogmas, with assertions, with quotations [I plead guilty], is really an uncreative mind; it is merely a repetitive mind. To escape from that fear of emptiness, that fear of loneliness, that fear of stagnation, of not arriving, not succeeding, not achieving, not being something, not becoming something -- is surely one of the reasons, is it not, why we accept beliefs so eagerly and greedily? And, through acceptance of belief, do we understand ourselves? On the contrary, a belief, religious or political, obviously hinders the understanding of ourselves. It acts as a screen through which we look at ourselves. And can we look at ourselves without beliefs? If we remove these beliefs, the many beliefs that one has, is there anything left to look at? If we have no beliefs with which the mind has identified itself, then the mind, without identification, is capable of looking at itself as it is -- and then, surely there is the beginning of the understanding of oneself."
@ ikeberltersen:
Right on! Either way, the rank and file Republicans, who will need healthcare as much as anybody else, will inevitably realize they've been totally had by their politicians, who only care about their wealthy donors and how to stay in power.
Sure, largely due to "Buckley v. Valeo" and "Citizens United v. FEC," Democrats also have to play the money game to play the political game. At least most politicians in the Democratic party, the traditional party of the common man and woman, fight for legislation that benefits struggling workers, as opposed to most politicians in the Republican Party, the traditional party of the comfortable wealthy, who only fight for legislation that benefits their donor class.
It's high time we reverse the economic and political paradigm in this country and regain power of, by, and for the People. We need to realign the system so that it more fairly (to borrow a phrase from humorist, Finley Peter Dunne) "...comforts th' afflicted, afflicts th' comfortable..."