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The ACA mandate was a stopgap to prevent someone from not buying insurance and then when needing insurance claiming pre-existing. The penalty is minimal for the poor and higher for those that could have afforded insurance. This was the only way to get pre-existing added. Republican Care also has a mandate that penalizes someone that does not get insurance by charging them 30% more (payable to the insurance provider) for 1 year. This mandate will cause the collapse of Republican Care. Many will not insure and take the gamble. If they lose they will insure and pay the 1 year penalty.
Google Medical Tourism.
Duckduckgo: Will I have to pay a fine if i do not prove I have healthcare coverage?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/julie-stich/have-health-insurance-be-_b_89...
Thom..."according to the CBO"...
Since when has the CBO been accurate? They were wildly off on their Obamacare predictions and none of you on the left has a clue as to why they were wrong, including you Thom.
K2
The only people that I see in denial are the climate change alarmists. We, mankind, will be extracting fossil fuels from the earth for many generations to come. That is a fact, and no amount of alarmism is going to change that fact. Better get used to it.
K2
DianeReynolds: Let's use facts, not Republican talking points when discussing the Affordable Care Act. The individual mandate requires that people have health insurance that meets minimum essential coverage at least 9 months out of a calendar year. Most policies now meet that standard.
There is no requirement that you purchase that insurance through the exchanges, meaning you already are free to pick and choose the insurance you want as long as it meets the minimum requirements.
You are not forced under penalty of law to purchase government healthcare. That is simply not true. There is a penalty which is paid through your taxes if you don't have MEC. There are numerous exemptions and reductions available.
The only increased choice the Republican plan offers is the choice of crappy insurance plans that pay for very little. There are reasons that the ACA excluded those substandard plans: the ACA was shaping a health care system that works more efficiently. It's not perfect but it's an improvement over what we had.
Interesting how the left and right embrace things like wikileaks and the CBO when the results or releases slide in their favor. In this case, somehow the number of people who were forced to purchase government healthcare under peanlty of law may now choose other options goes unreported, but are included in this report as negatives.
k.allen:
Lot's of stuff to digest. You are correct in your comment the left needs an icon like Limbaugh or Hannity. I don't believe Thom Hartmann will never fill that roll. It has to be someone with a sense of humor, that does not constantly repeat themselves, and bring on guests that actually get a chance to make their point before being talked over, potted down, or cut off entirely. They would also need to have a sense of bravado and self importance that bonds them to their audience. Thom has a list of repeated points that are wrong or twisted and completely ignore the influence of advances in technology when they took place. One example, he will never change his Rubio risk corridor comments because he can't wrap his head around the facts surrounding the disaster that is/was obamacare. It is easier for him to believe what he says and his audience laps it up as facts.
Give Tucker Carlson a watch. He may be a model your side needs to copy. He is often wrong, makes facial expressions that drive me nuts, but at the end of the interview he usually manages to net a win. I know he is in Rachel Maddow's time slot but after last nights show she may be wearing a bag over her head for the rest of her time on television. Last night she made Geraldo Rivera's Al Capone safe opening on national TV actually look like an important event.
As for those "industrious immigrants" I spoke of from 140 years ago, when they came to America they wanted to assimilate. Todays immigrants come in and all too many insist on changing American culture to that of the country they immigrated from. Big difference.
At what point in the evolution of Christianity did it become a religion of endless war and indiscriminate killing, of cruelty and indifference to the plight of the poor and the sick, a religion of wealth and power and greed and selfishness and mindless materialism that poisons the land, the water, the air, the minds and bodies of every living being, and crushes the spirit? A nation ruled by those who loudly profess their abiding faith; yet, these are the fruits of their labor. A nation hanging on a cross of false religion and hypocrisy.
Google Medical Tourism. Panama is a good choice.
... heaven ... earth ... breath of life ...
one breath at a time .... be peace ....
(Dianereynolds - #19)
... and probably still are ... in fact, I would not be surprised to know those same fears are roiling around in the brains of many people today ... what you often refer to as "hair on fire?"
So, why is it fun to ridicule others for their fears?
It's one thing to laugh at your own pain. It can help you survive it. I think it is quite another to mock the suffering of others.
I would be grateful to know people here can get past the petty bickering and insult-festing to really look at different views for what they are ... whether or not we agree, let's look at what the differences are, and why it matters? We might find areas we can agree and make real progress between us. That would be Christmas morning for me.
Can we do that?
That's a bit panoramic for me - doesn't begin to break it down.
Did you know the word "industry" shares a common root stemming from the word "love?" So really, industry is about devoting yourself to working with your whole heart and soul for what you love - no matter what.
(That is the mark of a true professional - not the full-figured income.)
So, how did that same word come to mean the regimented world of the military-industrial complex with its adornments of factory farms, polluting smokestacks and waste deposits, time clocks, production lines, long hours, starvation wages, prisons and psych wards for those who don't like it that way ... so much poison ... so little love and respect for the body of life itself?
That is a loaded statement. When people see no way to help themselves other than to proceed at the expense of others, that contributes to the denigration of society as well. That would apply to corporate welfare that supports executive incompetence and administrative waste, as well as prisons that employ people for little or no pay, with no effort at habilitation; an economy that allows for wage slavery and little more, opening the door for criminal behaviors and the industries they sustain ... apparently, where we find ourselves today ... so, we are tested, and channeled according to our works.
... except, the new wave of All-American Greatness will usher in new jobs for everyone ... and, lots of love ...? Ok ... do you really want to wait and see how that one works out? I doubt that I would have survived with any small measure of independence without government support.
I hope it will prove to be a worthy investment.
Single parent homes? Not optimal, for sure. Still, are they any worse than single family homes ruled by petty deities in the bodies of men?
It seems to me, if people are sick of that tripe, they also are addicted to it ... and I have to ask, who benefits from enabling that dependency - right or left?
Aside from "The Law" being anything but simple, or uniform throughout the culture - therefore screaming for positive change - the people appointed to adjudicate and execute "The Law" are human ... therefore, capable of error and misjudgment. Some, if not many of these players have areas in their personal lives that are ... well, let's just say, sensitive ... not that many are immune to manipulation.
So far, I see no indication that judges appointed by Trump will be any more reliable than those we have today - not that they are all so good. If anything, they will be relied upon to play on Trump's team - or not at all.
Diane, one dose of vitriol is as sour as the next. Maybe if these folks take off their tin foil hats, and you lay down your foil, we can turn the page and proceed with relevant, meaningful exchange.
I would like that.
Dianereynolds (#19)
I use Thesaurus ... it's a good writing tool, especially for trimming the vitriol into more palatable phrasing.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. And thank you for the link. I'm pretty sure Thom appreciates being fact checked. I've been listening to his show for a while now. Sometime within the last couple of years, some folks started saying "the left" needs a media icon like Limbaugh or Hannity/Beck.
I go, "Why?!" I don't identify as "right" or "left" - that framing is two dimensional, mono-minded, and does not begin to provide ground for in depth examination and real solution building. It engenders a cattle chute mentality and sets people against each other based on mutual misunderstanding and mistrust. Not helpful.
Coalage keeps bringing that up, along with repeated reprisals of the "we-won-you-lost-get-over-it" meme which seems like a complete waste of time, and empty argument to me - like a tug of war with no rope. What are you guys pulling on, anyway?
Thin air?
Whatever his reasons, it seems like Thom's trying to fill the role.
I once heard Beck expound on how it's not so easy to just talk off the top of your head for several hours in a row, day after day. I thought, is that what he's doing? Well, no wonder .... and Limbaugh is his idol?
Limbaugh may be a certain kind of funny ... I do not find him entertaining or amusing. I have to remind myself that this person, also, is part of the body of life, and the human family. Which part, I cannot say. This son of an immigrant family who MADE IT REALLY BIG IN AMERICA has earned his bragging rights, no doubt.
It's all verbal diarrhea to me. If those folks have taught me anything, it is that I do NOT want to be like them - not one way, or another.
I object to a number of positions Thom takes. Still, I give him the benefit of doubt - he is under a lot of pressure ... kind of like sleeping on a bed of nails and walking on a bed of hot coals at the same time ... hoping at least some of it is only a dream.
... even if it is "The Impossible Dream."
I wonder if he feels like the fisherman in Steinbeck's "Old Man And The Sea". He goes out in his little skiff, looking for his daily catch, and hooks a _giant_ marlin that drags him way, way out to sea.
After an endless battle, the old man wins. He straps the big fish to the skiff, and sets out for home. Along the way, he is besieged by sharks who savage most of the marlin by the time the worn out old man finally reaches home shores.
I think Thom might be going through the long row home about now.
(((Thom, Louise, all you folks, whatever you face in these times, I keep you - and all of us ((and them too)) in a place of peace and good health and living well ... call it a prayer if you will.)))
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Despite Trump's declaration that "healthcare is complicated." It is actually relatively simple. It's only complicated when you try to figure out a way for the rich to profit from it.
What did the bill's architect, Paul Ryan, have to say about the CBO's numbers? That it wasn't the goal of the Republicans to win some 'coverage beauty contest.' Think about that. Millions of people losing their healthcare and he treats it as a game because in his mind, those people don't count.
The reason the CBO report predicted insurance rates going down after first going up? Because those in the 55-64 age bracket would be priced out of health care. That's also the demographic that needs the most health care, outside of those eligible for Medicare. Yes the insurance costs would come down because millions of older people will not be able to afford insurance, leaving a younger, healthier population that requires less medical treatment. This is not only heartless, it is vicious. Middle-aged people need to find out what this plan actually does.
Thom, you interacted with Bernie Sanders for 10 or 11 years on the air. In all that time you seem to have missed his message about the 1 percent. Bernie never identified them with a political party. During his primary campaign, he spoke generally about removing their money and influence from the political process and from governing. He did not single out the Republicans as the only culprits. Even today he criticizes the corporate Democrats as well.
The 1 percent control both parties. Smashing the Republicans is but a partial, imperfect solution. Sure, around health care they want to do a lot of damage. Meanwhile, the Democrats joined the confirmation of Trump's neo-fascist cabinet picks, they rigged the primary against Bernie, today, they actively try to slander and marginalize progressives, Obama expanded drone strikes and wars in the Middle East, did nothing for working class and minority Americans and only improved the economy for the rich. The Dems did all these things in the service of the 1 percent.
Pointing your finger only at the Republicans is giving Americans less than half the story, and misdirecting their resistance, dooming them to fail. The influence of the 1 percent is not confined to acting upon and through political parties. To focus our opposition just on the parties would be a mistake. The 1 percent operates to achieve their goals through the corporate media, universities, think tanks, ALEC, local and state regulatory bodies and other social institutions. People must actively and continually oppose the 1 percent wherever their tentacles reach, not just inside the Republican Party.
Regarding the repeal of for profit Romneycare/Heritage Foundation/right-wing "health insurance" ......you'll never hear the "corpse" media mention how much more affordable non profit single payer is, and how well it works for the rest of the world.
You'll also never hear that as a result of the repeal, the top 0.1% will get an average tax cut of more than $207,000 !!!! What I do hear is that repeal will reduce federal deficits??? This is a big joke when at the same time a 54 billion increase in the military industrial spy complex spending is being proposed.
Now is the time to be screaming for single payer and raise the cap...those two issues alone would jolt even the foxmerized back into a self interested voting reality. Offense anyone???? At a time when it makes the most sense to fight for it, I hear absolutely zero about single payer. In fact it's very rare that a Democrat gets interviewed by any national media outlet anymore...including NPR and PBS. It's like the party doesn't exist.
Trump certainly is doing a number on these same outlets by shifting attention away from focus on his Russian collusion to... "Obama Tapped my phone." I hear that damn Breitbart fake news story repeated day and night on all corpse media outlets.....what's it been a week and a half now? Trump just bought more time by delaying the evidence release..LMAO. This country has turned into a total joke to the rest of the world. Putin sure is bent over laughing.
I'm very troubled that the news anchors and democratic leaders never ask the difficult questions on this and other issues. Why, in answer to reducing the cost, don't these people ask "In reducing cost do you mean to the government or the people? Reducing the deficit means you are reducing the cost to government, not the people, so which one are you supporting? The people who need health care are being screwed by Trumpcare! We need Medicare for everyone!
Love it!
My request is that we somehow make the Republicans have same insurance that they are proposing for us: Accessible but unaffordable. Take away their premium policies, they don't deserve them anyways given the job they are doing. And two choices here for them, either give yours up and take what the "commoners - average people" can afford or give every American the same insurance the Congress and Senate members have. And I am really confused here, the seniors get a $3 (on average) increase per month on Social Security with an $8 increase in Medicare and the extra premium they have to pay for health insurance if they are ill and NOW they are proposing that seniors will be paying even more for their insurance? And they said Obama Care was designed to kill elderly? Ha! The GOP might as well come out and tell seniors to just die, oh wait I think one of the congressman did say it? Can I move to Canada now?
2018 is coming and the retribution will be clear and finally understood by those republicans who will find themselves out of office...unless the impeachment comes sooner, like right after Donnie's income taxes are exposed. Then it'll be "Hands off the ACA!" and we can set about the business of getting more business out of government...'draining the swamp', as it were.
Would that it was that, Thom. The Repugnicans are treating healthcare as an entitlement - one only for the rich. Their philosophy is simple: If you have to choose between food/shelter and healthcare, then you deserve neither.
there is a very fundamental problem, and that is the republicans have "educated" their voters to see healthcare as a resource issue, and, if healthcare is not a privilege there will not be enough resources to go around. what the democrats have utterly failed to do is to "educate" everyone that it is the tax structure that determines resources, and the rich have not paid their fair share of taxes since 1980. simply put, we are living in a gilded age and are waiting for the next charles dickens to tell it like it is!
Tom point is well taken about the cost effective world view of a repub.
That said, US health costs per person are twice the rest of the industrialized
world because of insurance industry and unlimited law suits.
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