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Thom Hartmann has written a dozen books covering ADD / ADHD - Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder.
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Thom, I just listened to your show from yesterday, and last week I noted that you were slipping on your interviews with right wingers, but your conversation with Kerry Lucas was very well done. You did a good job pointing out some of the absurdity in her arguments, but you also treated her with respect and had a legitimate debate.
Just wanted to catch you doing something good!
I listen to the show on XM and unfortunately it is a delayed broadcast so I cannot call. My comment concerns the interview with Kenny Golde concerning credit card debt.
Mr. Golde put forth that people should not feel guilt or shame for not being able to pay their credit card debt. He recommended that even people who are able to meet current payments should stop paying so they could negotiate their debt downward, in effect promoting theft.
His rationale is that people overspent because of the credit card companies. Give me a break. People have overspent because they “had to have it now”. It ignores the fact that people make bad choices and should feel the pain of those choices.
I am 59 years old and my wife and I have no credit card debt. It’s not because we are wealthy, it’s because we put off purchases if we couldn’t afford to pay. Those who didn’t should feel the consequences of their actions.
Not too many years ago, to declare bankruptcy was considered shameful. Unfortunately, today it has become a strategy.
Our Country is on a path that diminishes the responsibility people have for their actions.
(I am not speaking of people who experience a job loss or a medical emergency so do paint me as a heartless conservative.)
Over time, I have developed a test for judging whether any government action is morally right or wrong. I consider whether it would be morally wrong for any single person to take the same action. I ask myself whether I would be willing to personally perform the action, and whether it would be right. Depending upon the answer, I get a pretty good feeling for the morality of the law in question.
Now I apply this test to Thom's example. I am the government, and I have to act or not act in the following circumstatnces: A group of workers want to form an association. Fine, everyone has the right to form an association. The remaining workers want no part of the association. Also fine, people have the right to not associate. The employer has agreed on terms of employment with each employee. Fine, how could I interfere here between the right of two people to trade. The workers' association wants to bargain with the employer as a single unit. Also fine.
But then there are some things that I would feel uncomfortable enforcing. First, I'm not sure that I could tell the employer that he is not allowed to say, "No thanks, I don't want to bargain with you; I deal with my employees as individual people." How can I personally tell him he can't do this? By what authority? Then again, how can I approach those workers who did not wish to associate with this union and tell them, "This union now will determine the terms of your employment." What right do I have to interfere with their lives.
In either of these cases, I would be met with resistance by the employer and by the non-joining workers. Were it not for the pair of ivory handled shooting irons hanging from my belt, they would tell me to go take a hike. So the only way I could enforce this idea would be for me to threaten them with... what? I lock them up? Shoot them? So now, here I am, threatening people who have done no one any wrong. How can I claim any moral authority.
Anyway, when I look at a situation like Thom describes, that's the way I analyze it. And when I determine that I would be violating innocent people's rights, considered a meddling ass, and probably met with righteous resistance, I have to conclude that the plan is morally wrong, and that government would also be wrong to do the same thing.
If we can't agree, then we at least ought to be clear on where and why we disagree. I'm sure that I've not convinced anyone of anything here, but just thought I'd try to make my principles and reasoning clear and understandable.
And Blue Neck is right, only small scale VOLUNTARY collectivism works.
No analogy is perfect. Nevertheless, Thom makes a salient point: Workers must have the right of association just like anybody else.
If a union is formed, I guess the anti-union worker can find employment elsewhere. It wouldn’t be the first time a worker was told to “like it or lump it.” Some people believe that ultimatum should only come from their bosses or from suits on TV. I distinctly remember our “betters” telling laid-off workers that they’d have to find work in the service industries after manufacturers moved overseas. That’s the way the “free” market works, they were told.
As far as Communist China is concerned, everyone knows that collectivism works only on a small scale. For instance, I belong to a food cooperative. Incidentally, I also can disassociate myself from it if I chose to do so. Nobody seriously believes that Chinese workers, whether “unionized” or not, have any power or have a sense of ownership of the means of production. The irony of Communist China is that it is such fertile ground for capitalism. Communist China plus capitalism is the perfect marriage because neither are small-d democracies.
Arlen Specter is just a bigot when it comes to workers. He wants his freedom of association—even if it is just to get re-elected—but doesn’t want the “unwashed rabble” to have that same freedom.
The Republican Theme Song, by Groucho Marx.
I’m Against It
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtMV44yoXZ0
[Groucho]
I don't know what they have to say,
It makes no difference anyway,
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
No matter what it is or who commenced it,
I'm against it.
Your proposition may be good,
But let's have one thing understood,
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
And even when you've changed it or condensed it,
I'm against it.
I'm opposed to it,
On general principle, I'm opposed to it.
[chorus] He's opposed to it.
In fact, indeed, that he's opposed to it!
[Groucho]
For months before my son was born,
I used to yell from night to morn,
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
And I've kept yelling since I first commenced it,
I'm against it!
poem from an old schoolbook - 1927 - Junior High
Abou Ben Adhem
----------------------------
Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in the room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold.
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?" The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, "I pray thee then,
Write me as one who loves his fellow men."
The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest.
Leigh Hunt
Thom, thank you for taking my call RE: Kenny Gold. I wanted to add that there are tens of thousands of aspiring filmmakers and producers who want to get their projects made. It was discouraging to hear Kenny say that this is the way to get ahead, to put your production expenses on credit cards then talk your way out of paying them off. I don't think he considered the effects that will result if other media folks follow this model. His approach degrades the development and production process. His credit card expenses were not medical or for food, they were to further his career. It is sad to hear a colleague propose this route to producing. I hope you can find a guest who produced a great project without resorting to faulty - I want to say dishonorable - justifications like this.
Last week I was listening with increasing incredulity the commentary of a recently reinstated progressive talk show host (who shares with Ron Reagan the initials R.R.) on the subject of Nancy Pelosi’s flip flop on torture. Unlike some people, I’m not prepared to place Nancy Pelosi on a “go girl” pedestal for her apparent change of heart on supporting a “truth commission.” Before, she probably was possessed by the awareness that she not only was briefed on “enhanced interrogation techniques,” but that unlike some of the Democratic lawmakers who heard the same thing she did from the CIA, she expressed no opposition to what—semantics and euphemisms aside—she full well knew was torture. If she was “misled” on waterboarding, it was not on the procedure itself, but the timetable of its implementation.
Pelosi the political opportunist did not what to jeopardize her position by picking a fight with a Bush administration that was successfully playing the fear and paranoia card. But now, she realizes that she has been compromised by revelations that she knew that torture (euphemisms aside) was intended and did nothing, and to save her credibility (and fundament), she is now supporting what others have been pressing her to do for years. Misled? She misled herself.
Tom, I think you are right about things getting worse before we can reclaim our democracy. It will take a lot more pain before people realize what's really going on and decide it's time to do something about it. Some people are still too comfortable and untouched by the current downturn. They don't think it can get worse. They need to wake up. It can happen here. We are not invulnerable.
I like Thom's show, but I have to respond to yet another instance of his playing fast and loose with the facts to advance a political agenda. History is my favorite subject, and when he says things like women were tortured during the Salem witchcraft trial, I am forced to correct that assumption. Corey Giles, who was not a woman, was one of the few who suffered instances of physical (as opposed to mental) torture by being pressed by heavy rocks to force a plea from him ("More weight" was his reply when pressed to plea). Otherwise, during the trial, inquisitors sought confessions free from the taint of torture; the teenage age girls who were the principle accusers engaged in what might be called malicious gossip today, but the reasons for their lies can be boiled down to fear, immaturity and the seeking of sympathy ("The Devil made me do it"), They may even have thought to gain public esteem. The driving forces behind the trials were not even religious in nature, but political, social and economic; this was particularly true in Salem, where the trials were used to get rid of personal enemies and troublesome characters, as well as a mechanism to gain the property of the accused, particularly widows.
Ancient Chinese proverb say he who does not pay debt take on bad karma.
But have the application of the laws of karma changed today Thousands of farmers in India commit suicide because they cannot pay back paper money for whom the value is artificially rigged and manipulated. In effect, the money has been stolen before we spend the mere paper pieces we possess. This is why I want Kibbutz as a safety net. Then go back to bartering for awhile, until as much of the system is rehabilitated as possible for what participating parties are involved. Beats going to Siberia prison! With holding payment is that bastion of last resort all corporations accepting credit and loans should be prepared for. Who will buy their widgets that drive their profits when we have no money?
I guess the best place to live in the US is on the Oregon side of the border between California and Oregon. If you have a terminal disease, you can legally use pot to deal with the complications in Cali and the when the time comes, have a physician help you end it in dignity in Oregon..
Supreme Court Hands Medical Marijuana a Major Victory http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/18/supreme-court-hands-medic_n_204...
Those may have been Reagan's 9 most terrifying words but his Party's 9 most terrifying words are "Of the People, By the People, For the People"!
Back in Eisenhower's time he warned us against the Military/Industrial complex...Oh, for the days of the Military/Industrial complex. Now their big brothers have taken over and we face the highly insidious Governement/Corporate complex.
Sharks are always moving. They cannot stop. They are from the same planet as pidgeons but their job is to watch our underwater activities. It is said they eat anything but they are actually sampling things and reporting the results of their inquiries to the whales who use their odd songs to transmit data to the homeworld---------------------------------jeez, I've been listening to Thom too long!
Woo - HOO!!! on last Friday!!!
Following your rant on Corporatism overwhelming government . . . is an advert for Schwarzenegger’s newest follies . . . Propositions 1A - 1F. Selling tomorrow’s future to maintain the Republican State legislators’ pledge to the Club for Growth . . . .
The mention of Libertarian think tanks reminded me that I've seen sharks in tanks. The evidence seems to be growing.
Libertarianism in the animal world... maybe sharks!
Louise,
Your welcome. I think just about everyone would like to see it work better.
I recall hearing Mike Malloy say that he was going to have the same people that built this site build his. His site does have a link to the message boards on the homepage. I don't post there, so I dont' know if it has any of the problems that the message boards here have.
I'm sure if you started a thread about how to improve the message boards you'd get some good suggestions. Some of the people there are very knowledgeable. I know one thing I'd like to see would be a spell check like this page does.
regarding torture if more than disbarment can be done to the lawyers that action must be taken .the bush administration must be held to the rule of law. if we just slap their hands it shows we are not serious about creating a peaceful soceity. what i would like to know how many inocent people where tortured and how many people died from torture? bruce fein for independant prosecutor.
Chip, we had that in America from the end of WWII until the "economic royalists" took over the Republican party in 1980. There was a split that year between the traditional moderate conservatives who respected the constitution and took their duties to represent the people to heart. It is true that they tended to think that businesses and the wealthy were more People than workers and the poor but not to the extent that the fascist Reaganites did. We had paid vacations, paid health care and sick days and PROSPERITY. We had grassroots movements working to make things better in our very stable communities and sought to hold corporations responsible for the harm they caused in the pursuit of profit. After Reagan all of that went out the window as the proclaimed "Government is Bad", "Don't expect to work at one company all your life", "Non-enforcement of the Sherman Antitrust act is good for everyone!" and on and on and on..............
The issue of having control over ones life: If I had 4 to 6 weeks of vacation a year, like many in Europe, I would feel I had a lot of control over my life. As it stands my wife and I are required to work so many hours that what little vacation time we get we can not use for fear of losing our jobs.
I could never talk to my extremely Republican mother about politics, either. She was very intelligent, but authoritarian, and didn't want to open her mind to things that might "shake her faith."