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Stopgap.
You asked me about DACA,
I responded....
The right thing to do is to allow them to stay and fix our immigration system. But before we open the door to more we should get our own homeless off the streets, and VETT new commers.
Then I went on to discuss immigration....
So now I'm sayin'
Many people grew up in poverty in Oakland, S.F. of all races, making excuses for them for the most part stealing guns is not an aceptable reason to take guns from law abiding citizens.
I to have been flat broke at times and for a few days was taken in by a black family in Marin City while I got it together. Many many people of color do not resort to stealing guns and killing people.
So lets help those people of color already here rise out of desperation before we take in more. It makes no sense to compound the problem.
Also we still have Asian gangs, Irish gangs...the cops,the Italian mafia ( unions ) et al.
Speaking of that I'm pretty sure Trump did not build in NY with out working things out with them....he would never get his cement poured if he didn't.
In S.F. we had Wille Brown for Mayor...a corupt but delightful mayor.He's still fun to listen to.
My dad grew up with 12 brothers and sisters in N. Carolina and far from being a plantation owner his and his brothers picked cotton as did many "White Trash".
That's what made his decision to move to Ca. Many a white family was desperate during the dust bowl too.
Stopgap: You have one hell of lot of faith in "the law", or those that profess to "protect and defend" or whatever that slogan is. Good luck, my friend, for "the meek shall inherit the earth" (and good luck there as well) :-D
First of all HC, DACA has nothing to do with opening the door to new immigrants. It has only to do with the special situation of dealing with the children who were brought here by their "illegal alien" parents.
As far a gangs go, in the nineteenth century we had big problems with Irish gangs and in the first half of the twentieth century, we had big problems with Italian gangs (aka, the mafia) we also had problems with Vietnamese gangs, Latino gangs and so on. The thing that most of these gangs have had in common is easy access to guns, which not only emboldens them, it empowers them, making gang-life a seemingly viable alternative for kids that don't have the same benefits of their peers.
The other thing that is often a common denominator to gangs is coming from an oppressed minority. I've lived in a ghetto situation and I've seen how difficult it is for children to escape the environment that they are locked into because of peer pressure and discrimination. Easy for us white people to condemn them but almost impossible to walk in their shoes. As Chris Rock says, "no white person wants to be me and I'm rich."
So I don't suppose that your employee getting shot had anything to do with weak gun control laws?
I've lived in isolated places, out with the bears and rattlesnakes, etc. where my garage was broken into while I was inside the house. My adopted stray dog did the honors of saving me the trouble of having a gun. I've lived in Oakland, South San Francisco and Venice, Ca. where helicopters would often hover above, and gunfire would ring out, and one guy half a block down the street got blown away and a neighborhood kid ended up on my doorstep with a gunshot wound, and I still never felt the need to buy a gun. Basically, I would watch where I walked and minded my own business and let the police do their job.
No one expects criminals to just hand in their guns but making guns illegal would be a huge first step. So is the alternative to insure that our most dangerous criminals and mentally deranged are armed to the teeth? Yes, it's true "that if all guns were banned, only criminals would have guns." But that's just the point, THEY WOULD BE CRIMINALS and could be arrested for having those guns. That's what laws are all about.
Australia figured it out, so why can't we? Because the NRA makes it a point to make sure that we don't figure it out. They offer all these incredibly contorted rationalizations for how having more guns will make us safer with only the flimsiest shreds of antidotal and hearsay evidence, while tens of thousands of Americans are butchered every year. I don't see how anyone could listen to this insane idiot, Trump, shooting off his mouth about arming teachers without any proof or evidence to back up his statements, and not think he was totally crazy.
We're not trying to ban all guns, but a little commonsense would be nice.
Jeffisse, you wrote in part "....these founding fathers were not much more than rich, aristocratic, racist, chauvinist, sexist, class oriented, extremely flawed white men..."
Yes, I suppose that's probable, given the times, at least for many of them. So do you suppose their failure to document which "we the people" they were concerned about means they were writing their prescriptions only for themselves? In which case, why write it down at all, as they already "had the hammer"? I prefer to believe they were moved to be more inclusive, even if they were imperfect in their own actions.
Outback
As to our " founding fathers" intent..
So very much of it is open for interpretation!
The first line.. " We the People"...
Who exactly were they talking about?
Definitely not the "savage" people just to their west..
Or.
Definitely not the "black" people they considered their property..
Women?
Couldn't vote..
Men who didn't own property?
Couldn't vote..
It sure could be interpreted. That these " founding fathers" were not much more than rich, aristocratic, racist, chauvinist, sexist, class oriented, extremely flawed white men...
Now, lm not saying that this is the case.
But, it could be interpreted that way!
Another one of my Rabbit holes ...for those who may be interested.
Rethinking Watergate
http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/rethinking-watergate/#more-11016
Legend
We have always needed a Laywer if we shot someone... even the police have to defend shooting someone. It would take up the majority of my life defending myself no matter the criminal past of the person shot. Especially in California. Not that anyone I know wants to shoot anyone.
The shootings I'm aware of have been people on drugs Pharma or illegal, or home invasions for drugs.
I hope that all of you gun owners that use their guns for self defense have a lawyer on retainer. They advertise on the local right wing radio stations that if you have to use your gun, you will most likely be arrested and you need a lawyer on retainer for immediate action.
https://www.google.com/search?q=gun+owners+lawyer+on+retainer&oq=gun+own...
jeffl,
My husband and I have been into alt. energy since the gas lines in the 70's. We haven't set up our personal systems yet. Our power was out for 24 hs this weekend with temps in the low 20's.
I don't know how you survive in those cold temps, in Wisc. Especially when the power goes down.
We speak on a weekly basis with 3 people in different European Countries trying to make the real break thought in energy...all three wish they could do it from the USA due to the difficulties of working with their Governments.
None of them care at all about Trump issues as the people of all countries want the break thru and are determined to find it and market it.
Tesla roofs are fantastic but out of the ballpark unless you're a millionaire.
And in my case. Now living in the "sprawling metropolis" of Janesville, WI. I only have to go a few miles in any direction to be rural...
Stopgap,
The right thing to do is to allow them to stay and fix our immigration system. But before we open the door to more we should get our own homeless off the streets, and VETT new commers.
Why...you do know that California prisions are run on the inside by the Mexican Mafia...We do have major ms 13 gang problems here. Not Fox bs...was here long before fox started yapping about it.
I was manage at a store in S.F. 20 years ago and it caught fire so I hired a Mexican crew to do the repairs...one crew member was outside the store at all time...to watch for drive by shooters. One of my employees was shot because his girlfriend had the wrong color ribbon in her hair.
Somehow I just don't see them turning in their guns, or becoming nice US citizens.
I grew up on a farm. And l shot many a skunk, coon and wild dog trying to get into the chicken coop or raid the duck or goose nests for eggs! So, yes l do know how different it is in rural areas...
Jeffl,
If you just disregard the bill of rights alltogether and just look at todays facts, people in the city do not need guns. The lives of people in the country are way different. I thought I understood that as a city person of 30 years, then I moved to the counry. Just the post above about the dogs show the difference. No one is coming to get the dog or put down your livestalk. Meth users & pot thieves are a real threat of home invasions. Right now there are 2 posters of missing women on the local front door of the closest mom & pop store...that is 26 mile from my house. Visiting friends have when you go the post office or hardware store...life is different. Most people are poor and stock the freezer with the fish they caught or the game they shot and it gets them through the winter. Especially the Indians at the res.
I don't cause as long as I can get to safeway...50 mile away I don't need to...but if SHTF it's nice to know there is 21 turkeys that come to see me every morning.
Jefflisse: I'll agree, the wording could have been more precise (on the 2nd Amendment). But context comes into play. Who had the Framers most reccently been at odds with if not a totalitarian and oppressive regime? "Shall not be abridged..."? By whom, and to what end, if not by such a regime and to their own ends? Beyond that, world history shows what happens when a society places its own welfare, even to the extent of relinquishing its own protections, in the hands of a ruler or a ruling class. I believe the Framers' meaning and intent is more than clear.
And what is the rational response to DACA? Round 'em up and send 'em to a country that they have never known with a language they don't speak…and to a place where they may well be in danger for their lives…just because they had the misfortune of being placed into a situation that was beyond their control….just because we don't want 'em here in this patch of land where we committed genocide with the native population, so that anglos "looking for a better life," like all immigrants, could swarm all over the "new nation" and selfishly declare that now we have new rules regarding who gets to stay here and who gets sent back to the "shit-hole" their parents came from?
But it's all about what is legal immigration and what isn't legal immigration, isn't it? Not about race or anything like that? The fact is that these people are here and the question is, what is the most reasonable and humane thing to do about it?
Maybe we could compromise and only send half out of the country. We could have a lottery. The lucky half could live here and likely live happy and productive lives and the unlucky half could be sent to an uncertain future that may well cost them their life. In other words they could be retroactively aborted.
Sorry outback. I changed some bad pronunciation and got in front of your responce. :-)
As most (some.. a few..a very few) of us know, the first ten amendments to the Constitution were added four years later as the Bill of Rights. The second amendment obviously being one of them.
The actual intent (of the framers) of this amendment, has long been hotly debated. And when l read it, I can see why. To put it bluntly.. The framers did a "SHITTY" job of wording it!!
Irregardless of whatever their actual intent really was?!?
I reposted this last statement from the 20th.
I personally DONT believe our founding fathers ever intended to even try to regulate or take away any guns from the then colonists.. Or, should l be saying.. The first citizens of this, then newborn nation.
Back then.. A large percent of them did use their guns to procure food.
["Chuckling" needing the "protein" in their diet..]
In my case.. Thats why l call it the "sport" of hunting. My survival most definitely doesn't ( at least not yet) depend on it.
HC: yes that's unfortunate about the dogs. From time to time there are dog packs here that chase the deer. I blame the dog owners for that.
About the dogs,
That too is a bloody tradjety when the rancher has to shoot the dog and the injured livestock!
Outback I totally agree. But then I live on 80 acres.
I usually have lots of deer here , racoons, skunks...but nothing the last 2 years since the fires drove the mountian lions and bobcat here.
Having a dog is an issue to as they pack up an threaten the ranchers livestock.
Most of my neighbors have dogs and I listen to their dogs to get a feel for what's going on.
Funny thing about all our laws...you could wrap the pages around the world a couple of times. Yet when ever a politican is caught red handed at anything, and I mean anything they come out and say yes yes it was morally wrong but unfortunatly it's not illegal...
how does that happen???
Jefflisse: I can't say I'm a "proud gun owner". I belonged to the NRA 40 years ago because I believed they did some good in educating kids on safe practices, etc. I haven't been a member since. To tell you the truth, guns scare the hell out of me, though I'm very proficient with both hand guns and rifles. I'd rather see every last one on earth go up in a whiff of smoke, right after all the nukes are destroyed. I have never been a hunter because I can't justify it on the grounds of needing the protein. I do enjoy target shooting at the range (I have enough acreage I could do it here but am considerate enough to honor my neighbors' P&Q). And when I'm way up in the woods where there's no risk of injuring anyone, that is, where there's a backstop and clear field of view, I have to confess I enjoy mounting a 30 round clip to my AK-47 an making a tin can dance at 50 yards, but that's just playing. Yes, I pick up the can and take it home. So what's that make me? A "gun nut". I own a variety of weapons for several different reasons. First of all, and as totally unlikely as this is, if some burly 23 year old on angel dust wielding a baseball bat were to kick down my door in the middle of the night, I'd much rather have my 9mm semi automatic pistol handy, because my own baseball bat likely wouldn't hack it. So call it "peace of mind". And as I observed here recently, living in a remote area is likely a safer place to live in that even the dim witted are aware that most households have an armed occupant. So am I now "a paranoid gun nut"? I like to think I'm just prepared, though I hope I never have to even point a gun at anyone, much less pull the trigger. And finally, I take a view of the Second Amendment that I know is not shared with many people here. I believe the Founders believed that The People might some day have to defend themselves, by force of arms, from a despotic government. I live not that far from Ruby Ridge, and it impressed me. There is also the very real possibility, given the great fissures that have been dividing us as a people that anarchy, following a total economic meltdown, is not out of the question. Enter, my AK and a couple other assorted 'combat style" weapons. Ok, so now I'm a "paranoid gun nut with a militia mentality". No, not at all. I'm a peace loving, liberal leaning thoughtful person that would never think of using a weapon unless put in a corner;. And if that should ever happen, regardless of the scenario, I want the option of going down swinging as hard as I can, not on my knees. So in that regard, I AM proud.
Outback,
No not directed at anyone .
Stopgap,
I've said the same about the Bushes, Cheney,Rumsfield, Ollie North, Regan...et al. as I have about Hillary.
It just didn't suit you to hear me.
On Regan and the disaster of throwing the mentally ill in the street...it was just plain sick....yet so was the way the mentally ill were being treated in the assylums.
Why is it when we get a solution it's as bad as the problem?
My point is the right truly believes the government and the left want to take all their guns...true or not they believe it. You will not suceed in getting them to be rational about reforms any more that the left will be rational about DACA because they don't believe the right is doing it for the right reasons....therfore the standoff will just go on and on.
No I'm not part of the NRA, No I don't have an assault rifle.
" A house divided against it's self will not stand".
What do you think the Russians think about us tearing ourselves apart??? As well as the rest of the world? I think it makes us look pretty damm weak, and ripe for attacks.
I really don't care what politican you can name they all start the morning with the appointed talking point...so tired of there contrived BS not one of them has an original thought, they are all scripted. BY WHOM??? FOR WHAT END????
Dana Loesch NRA Spokeperson on the Sunday circuit said that the NRA will accept no retrictions or cut backs on guns. Since they have the Republican Party paid off that is the way that it will remain. Next mass murder is scheduled by the Republican Party.
Interseting she claimed that her children go to a school that the teachers are all armed. New Charter School I guess. Although Wikipedia says that her and her husband home school their kids and 1 is 19. Let's not forget that there were 4 highly trained policemen in the parking lot of that school hiding behind cars. At Columbine a policeman ran from the scene and it took 4 hours for the police to enter the building.