All oppositions, insurgencies, revolutionary movements and reform candidates "jump the fence" when they get in. The simple fact is their vested interests change when they become "the powers that be". When you're the insurgency or opposition you abhor political repression and censorship of the press, then, when your insurgency or opposition succeeds and you become the ruling party or governing administration, when you go "from the streets to the suites", it then suddenly seems a very good idea to repress the opposition and censor the media. That's why Occupy was independent of party loyalty and leaderless.

But every politician's - and especially every president's - greatest nightmare, in these times, is for more 9/11s happening on their watch. As long as they think they'll catch more flack for not spying on Americans than for doing it they'll do it.

Same with drone strikes. Getting the word out about drone strikes got the support for them from the Amercan public down from 80% to 60%. But until the American people make plain to Obama, or any other president, that they want drone strikes to stop even if that means Al Quaeda has a safe haven in Pakistan they will continue.

We have to think about not convincing Obama but of convincing the American people who Noam Chomsky calls "the most powerful political force in the world". That means a lot of hard work and movement building and not self indulgent carrying on.

leighmf -- What special file numbers?

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The ongoing discussion as to the legality of NSA surveillance is not a question for discussion. More discussions of absolutely unconstitutional actions by the federal government do not need more discourse, but needs to cease now. Our courts should be up in arms that such a blatant violation of the fourth amendment could have been initiated in the first place. There should be issued an injunction by the courts to the NSA to cease and desist immediately under the threat of being held in contempt of the laws and the constitution governing our land. Using this logic of the fourth amendment, it is a small step to declare the so-called Patriot Act as unconstitutional upon the same grounds, with the addition of the first amendment. Security at the expense of my liberties is much too high a price pay.

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The ongoing discussion as to the legality of NSA surveillance is not a question for discussion. More discussions of absolutely unconstitutional actions by the federal government do not need more discourse, but needs to cease now. Our courts should be up in arms that such a blatant violation of the fourth amendment could have been initiated in the first place. There should be issued an injunction by the courts to the NSA to cease and desist immediately under the threat of being held in contempt of the laws and the constitution governing our land. Using this logic of the fourth amendment, it is a small step to declare the so-called Patriot Act as unconstitutional upon the same grounds, with the addition of the first amendment. Security at the expense of my liberties is much too high a price to pay.

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mrbrannon68 - I am not sure if the 4th. Amendment you are citing stops the government from search without a warrant in this situation The Constitution, through the Fourth Amendment, protects people from unreasonable searches and seizures by the government. The Fourth Amendment, however, is not a guarantee against all searches and seizures, but only those that are deemed unreasonable under the law.

Whether a particular type of search is considered reasonable in the eyes of the law, is determined by balancing two important interests. On one side of the scale is the intrusion on an individual's Fourth Amendment rights. On the other side of the scale are legitimate government interests, such as public safety.

The extent to which an individual is protected by the Fourth Amendment depends, in part, on the location of the search or seizure. Minnesota v. Carter, 525 U.S. 83 (1998).

Senator Feinstein (D. CA), Chairwoman of the Intelligence Committee seems to feel very strongly that what the NSA is doing is key to keeping us free from another 911. You state you are not willing to surrender your liberties or civil rights for security. I am not sure if you are legally surrendering your civil rights in this instance according to the 4th. Amend., apparently you do. And, because I am not sure about that point and whether or not this is a fundamental right that supersedes keeping me and my family safe from all types of attacks, I simply am not ready to shut down the NSA eye in the sky that is ripping this information from the skies with the ever knew technology we have at our disposal to help keep a radioactive, biological or just a woman or child strapped with explosives from blowing the hell out of everyone in the local mall. Because we have no evidence on hand that we have actually stopped an attack, we may have disrupted we are not aware of. So far I have not seen any Court rulings stating what the NSA is doing is illegal. And, because I am not sure at this point, what right you may have or may not have under the 4th. Amend. to deprive me and my loved ones from any means that may inhibit or stop an attack on any level against us. The military does not have to go to war in order to inhibit another country from attacking us; the very presence of their ability has stopped many nations from attacking on us on any level without the eminent and direct threat of retaliation from us. I realize the powers that be at some point could use this technology against us as citizens, but the government can also use the military or any other technology against us to usurp our civil rights. To many Mr. Snowden is a hero, I am not convinced of that at this point and neither am I convinced that the NAS intelligence gather is illegal, especially if new controls can be set forth to govern their action. This information is not being stored anywhere, it is being dumped every 48 hours in order to scan new information for threats. The technology being used does not just recognize specific words or phrases, it recognizes type of speech and dialect as well, regions of origin, etc. Yes, I realize how it sounds somewhat strange for me to be standing up for the President and the Intelligence Committee and NSA, based on previous comments. But with the multitude of threats facing us in this new era and the volume of hate that is voiced daily against America and not just the Government, but also the American people, I am not willing to throw this technology of information gathering away without further study on my part and the watch dog committees whose job it is to protect our civil rights. I read what Hartmann had to say and the quotes from the oversight committee. His job is too sensationalize everything he reads, that is what keeps him on the air. He is on the far left with the likes of MSNBC and FOX is on the far right. I am leary when reading anything either side says. I appreciate the idea that you feel your civil rights are being stepped on and you have all the right in the nation to feel this way and take whatever action you feel necessary. But, for me I will wait and watch to make my stand. If you want to exchange non useful slander bank and forth about my choices, save you breathe, I no longer engage in that game. I have learned from my past mistakes. K.W. Please excuse the length of this comment and any spelling or grammar typo's.

ken ware: Actually, the NSA has been spying on us for decades and it sure didn't stop 9/11 nor did it stop the Boston bombings 10 years after 9/11. And the NSA was spying on all American citizens in the decade after 9/11 even harder than just before 9/11. The spying on American citizens has very little to do with trying to protect us against terrorism. It has a lot more to do with keeping American citizens from rebelling against the entrenched ruling elite.

Our Future: https://www.aclu.org/ordering-pizza Cute dramatization of how our surveillance state will be soon enough.

By the way, ken ware, many social media web sites, even this TH blog still has records of what we have typed going back years. TH looks like it goes back to about 2009. Before that they just put up show notes. And any one of us can do a selective search on key words to see what someone had said back then.

But making our opinions and even, in many cases, our personal information public like that...well, we know that others will read that stuff. But when you talk on a telephone, you at least have an expectation of privacy. And if the NSA or even private corporations working for the NSA are listening in then there is just no privacy...we may as well be living in the old Soviet Union. The US has it's own KGB and STASI now monitoring everything we do and say.

And although they have special computers (eg: dictionary computers more advanced than the decades old ones from Echelon) that listen for key words and flag select key words for an analyst to listen to the whole conversation and most of the conversations will just sit in some mass storage in Utah, perhaps, that data will still be searchable and called back up for analysts to listened to or read in the future.

American jingoists would have considered this a horrible crime against the people if they were considering, decades ago, what the Ruskies were doing to their people. That's the kind of thing we all, who served our country, believed we were fighting against. Yet, now it's happening in the US. Many people fought and died defending against such a horrible thing. And now some right wingers just want us all to roll over and ignore it. But many of those currently in power (both Democrat and Republican puppets for the ruling elite).. politicians..are chicken hawks anyway...never having served but more than willing to send other people's sons and daughters into war.

----------------------------

"Our storage is outpacing our ability to produce information. We are sending more emails than we were years ago, but at a certain point, I can only bang out emails so fast. But the ability to store those emails? That continues to increase exponentially."

"Do you see a future where entities store all the information we produce?

It's not the future. It's the present, and it’s called Google, it's called Yahoo, it's called Facebook. Facebook already has every IM you've ever sent [through Facebook]. Google has saved all those emails you've been sending [through Gmail]. They have it, they've indexed it, and they’ve generated models on you. This isn't the future; this is the last few years.

Is that data collection for advertising purposes?

Definitely"

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-are-the-nsa/

But, it's not just for advertising purposes when the NSA gets it. Already, the TSA..Homeland Security..abuses their original mission they sold the country...originally to detect and prevent another terrorist attack like 9/11...but they go far beyond that mission snagging people that have nothing to do with terrorism. One day in the future, what's to say that those powerful people won't ban the bible and religion? If you're caught with a bible or caught praying or holding covert services then they will throw you in prison? It could happen here! I think that was a television program back in the 50s when they tried to propagandize us against the Ruskies. It could happen here! It IS happening here!

I think it was Rooseveldt who said those willing to give up freedom for safety deserve neither. I wholeheartedly agree.

If our so-called representatives are sincerely committed to protecting us from another 9-11, they might begin by re-examining their foreign policies. I'm talking about unprovoked aggression against other countries whose only "offense" is sitting on land rich in oil and other natural resources this Almighty Corporate Fascist Empire is hellbent on stealing. It is these policies that have made us the target of so many whose rage against the U.S. is entirely justified.

I'd be hard-pressed to name anyone on this blog, or anywhere else, with one tenth the courage of Snowden or Manning. Those two should get Nobel prizes for their amazing acts of courage. They've sacrificed everything for their convictions. They deserve all the acolades they've received, and I am in awe of them both. - Aliceinwonderland

AWL - Manning is getting what he deserves and Snowden will get his trial once he is captured. I am not convinced they gave up everything for their convictions, more likely they wanted the spot light on themselves and it back fired. You are quoting Roosevelt during an era where the threats were different and the technology was basic. Had he had the technology of today, he would have used it to gather information in and outside of our country. Roosevelt had the Japanese Americans put into camps because he did not trust their loyalty and the FBI trailed all German Americans for the same reasons. I do not think it is logical to apply what they faced in 1941 and what we face in 2014. As one person has mentioned on earlier blogs, we live in a new epoch and things have changed in the manner in which we deal with our enemies that would do us harm. Good Night...K.W.

It was Ben Franklin, long, long ago who said, in effect, that those willing to give up liberty to purchase security, deserve neither.

http://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

And Al Queida is a creation of the CIA. We lost our old enemy, the Soviet Union, and needed a new one on which to squander trilluons of dollars in the military-industrial oilagarchy.

Here's a novel approach to stopping the nefarious NSA:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=em-subs_digest&v=e9bhlwPxgCU&desktop_...

Turn off their water.

That was another Mother Jones story from the early to mid 2000s, about how the US., the C.I.A., under Eisenhower, created radical Islamic fundamentalism, Wahabeism, the madrassas system, the whole bit, to fight Soviet influence in the Mid East that had Arab nationalists like Egypt's Nasser and eventually Saddam Hussein on their (the Soviets') side.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2006/01/cold-war-holy-warrior

You're right that the "War on Terror" against radical Islamic fundamentalism is what the Cold War used to be, a pretext for American empire (or imperial hedgemony over the world by means of indigenous puppet governments and overt military force when necessary).

AIW, lighten up, I didn't say "you", I said "we" gotta think about movement building not about making our own marginalized personal opinions known to Obama. I was born at a worse time than you. People my age are the ones aping the '60s not realizing it's a different world now. Writing letters is real good but building a movement what has to happen if we want to make the change. It would've been great to live in a time when you didn't have to be Saul Alinsky to get something changed, I don't fault you for that!

Pal--ary -- I think the program exists to keep those dollars rolling into the military-industrial complex. For the left, it is a jobs program. I don't think the ruling elite fear us; they just control us through the media.

chuckle8 # 27: So true...but that is what it is going to take before anything really does change for our better. I think that they very much do fear the possibility that the people will turn on them and get violent and that's why they have monopolized the news media which keeps people from rebelling.

chuckle8 #28: Could go either way couldn't it? And either way would not be very good for us.

Good article in Mother Jones, Mark! And it was written in 2006 before the Tahrir Square uprising. While US dodo heads are fearing Muslim terrorists..little do they know that the US has been funding and supporting them all this time. That's part of the reason why I believe that 9/11 was an inside job and the alleged 'hijackers' were merely patsies set up by the wealthy princes in Saudi Arabia and perhaps even Osama bin Laden... who was still a CIA operative... convincing suckers to play the part of the patsies.

Mark, aka "Anarchist cop out"- No problem. Sorry if I got a little thin-skinned.

Believe me, I share your frustration with the left. To your comments I'll add: too fragmented among subgroups, each with its own pet crusade, with much in-fighting between them. Not exactly a recipe for success in countering the oligarchy... or monarchy, or whatever you want to call it.

Those last ten years before moving to Oregon, my husband & I lived in Santa Cruz, California. I remember getting awful sick of the elitism down there. That area was populated with lots of spoiled rich kids who carried on like their shit didn't stink. That's how it was in the '80s when we lived there. I don't miss it.

We on the left have to become more effective as a unified force, behind a commonly shared goal. As I and others have emphasized from time to time, "Move to Amend" and campaign finance reform would be a good place to start. Without that accomplished, nothing else is possible. And until we learn to work together, we'll never be any match for the fascists, who are masters at working together in lockstep. While might doesn't make right, nor does righteousness guarantee doodily-do.

Anyway yes, Mark, I agree with your basic premise despite having taken one or two of your comments personally, which I now see was a mistake. Again, please accept my apologies. I'll admit, it's easy to misinterpret where people are coming from at times... - Aliceinwonderland

By the way, I just finished reading a great article in my favorite magazine The Nation, titled "Low-Wage Nation", by Saket Soni (interesting name). The author identifies immigrants in this country as the proverbial "canary in the coal mine". It warns us that if we continue viewing immigrants as "the other", with problems separate from ours, we will find ourselves in the exact same predicament they're in, disposible to employers, completely at their mercy, vulnerable to any kind of abuse they dish out (including, I might add, all-out wage theft). We are already well on our way down that spider hole, as the job market continues to deteriorate and our safety net crumbles. Collectively we must have a goal and a strategy to get ourselves out of this mess, before we're just cheap protein for predators. I commend (Mr.?) Soni for this outstanding article. - Aliceinweonderland

Swell. I agree though "chuck", it ain't looking good.

Thanks Suze, for the informative post. The more we learn, the worse it all looks. But we're still better off knowing.

Like the band on the sinking Titanic, play on... My piano beckons. Good night everyone. - AIW

Sorry, couldn't resist when I heard about Saket Soni.

By the way... I miss you Marc! Wherever you are, and whatever you're doing, I just hope you are okay. I've been feeling your absence over this past week and am a little concerned. I realize it's awkward trying to connect like this on such a public forum but if you could give me some indication you're all right, I'd sure appreciate it. Hasn't been the same without you, my friend. - AIW

Thanks, Marc! I'm relieved.

Marc, I thought you might've started getting caught in the site's spam filter like I did, which is why I had to adopt another forum identity. I thought some right winger on the site may've exercised his perogative to flag your posts after you beat him up in an argument (wouldn't be Kend, he's an exeedingly good sport and has much too much class for that). Couldn't've been 'cause your long, loquacious, bloviating posts were so personally obnoxious that they rightly came to be considered spam as, was no doubt what happened in my case.

I'd like to encourage any of us to volunteer as forum moderators on the site, they seem to be shorthanded - I never got a response to my queries about what happened with my username after I filled out the form provided (five times). We need some fair minded people to step up. I would but I'm underemployed and looking for a job so I don't have time now.

Alice, Obama's N.L.R.B. appointments have been held up by filibuster and his recess appointments are challenged in court by the Republican Obstruction Machine. But even so, some think the N.L.R.B. was really created to take the power and democracy out of unions and think we were better off before when workers' organizations didn't have to be "recognized" by the N.L.R.B. and didn't have didn't have to be bound by union contracts under N.L.R.B. rules and could do a direct action any time they thought they were being dealt with unfairly (like our N.L.R.B. unrecognized workers' organization did).

chuckle8; Feinstein's mail was running 400 to 1 against going into Iraq...and Snow's was 20 to 1? Says a lot about how effective people's letter writing to their representatives are, doesn't it? There's only one way things will change and we all know what that is but many people don't want to even think it...which means nothing will change...ever!

DAnneMarc: Maybe that 3rd nuke is being saved for California when they need yet another false flag operation like 9/11. They won't even need to blow up a city..just set it off a half a mile out from the entrance of a busy harbor...maybe the Golden Gate bridge will finally live up to it's name...the radiation will take it's toll on most people and the real estate and means of production will still be intact but slightly radioactive. They'll just send in a bunch of old people, because they won't live much longer anyway, to clean up the mess. That way, they could "kill two birds with one stone". It'll send yet another message to the witless xenophobic toadies in the US to hate everyone they're told to and dream of killing the foreigner cockroaches themselves. Be sure to invest in manufacturers of little US flags and US flag bumper stickers...you would make a fortune.