Thom Hartmann: We have been talking througout the day about the creeping and in some case lurching events of our time that were it all to have happened at once, rather than over a gradual 30 year period, probably would have had everybody in America in the streets. From the national security state to what’s going on in our airports, to the evisceration of our social safety net, to our, to these insane for profit health insurance companies, etc., etc., etc. And in the last hour I read at some length from Milton Mayer’s, now deceased, from his book, “They Thought They Were Free." Where in 1945 he went to Germany and interviewed ten good Germans and asked why and how and I shared with you how, one a college professor said, you know, you don’t see this happening on a gradual basis, it’s only when it starts really getting in your face. And is it now really in our face?
Stéphane Hessel has seen that and is seeing this now. He is a diplomat, ambassador, concentration camp survivor, 93 years old, former French Resistance fighter and BCRA agent. Born German, he became a naturalised French citizen in 1939. He participated in the drafting of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948. He is the author of several books, including most recently, just published in the United States by 12 publishers, "Time For Outrage". Stéphane Hessel, welcome to the program, sir.
Stéphane Hessel : Thank you, glad to meet you Mr. Hartmann, very proud to be talking to you.
Thom Hartmann: Thank you. It is an honor to have you on our program, sir. I never learned French. Indignez-vous!?
Stéphane Hessel : Yes. Indignez-Vous! The “igne" is very difficult for a non-French person. But you will learn French I’m sure, you are still very young. You have time to get acquainted with that strange language.
Thom Hartmann: Bless you. Bless you. So that is, indignation basically, or Time For Outrage. Time For Outrage. You say, “We are told shamelessly that the state cannot bear the cost of certain civil measures anymore. That the wealthy have installed their slaves in the highest spheres of the state," I’m quoting from your book. “The banks are privately owned, they’re solely concerned with profits, they have no interest in the common good." What has happened to the notion of the common good in the face of all these conservative governments around the world?
Stéphane Hessel : It has been completely overrun by something which I consider to be really a lobby. But a worldwide lobby with people like Milton Friedman pretending that any intervention by government in the sphere of economic and science is just bad. Let the earth’s financial tycoons do what is good for us and never mind about the government.
Thom Hartmann: And you talk about two visions of history. What are those two visions of history? That is your second chapter.
Stéphane Hessel : Yes. Yes. Because I was a great friend of a German philosopher who is well known now, Walter Benjamin, he was a good friend of my father’s. and I met him just a few days before he unfortunately committed suicide on the Spanish French border. He had the feeling that progress was something terrible. That was pushing the good things aside and making humanity grow more and more irresponsible for public good. I think he was exaggerating and I tried to convince him that there were forces still alive and I still believe that there are forces, progressive forces, and that they can overcome this unregulated and corrupted lobby of finance.
Thom Hartmann: So well said. In the previous hour I mentioned Robert McKee and a seminar that I attended of his long ago and he said that, on screen writing, and he said the opposite of love is not hate it is indifference. That’s the polar opposite of love. That is the extreme opposite of engagement, or apathy. You have, your third chapter is “The worst attitude is indifference." Your comments on that, sir?
Stéphane Hessel : I think it is unfortunately so that many young people, even in all our countries, are only intent on getting a job, getting a house, getting, and they’re not really interested in the way that their countries are being driven. They are part of a triangle composed of government, of financial forces, and of the citizen. If the citizen doesn’t get his government to resist the economic and social egotistic selfish forces, then he will be overcome and the government will be overcome. And my fear is that in this marvelous country, the United States, for which I have a real passion and for which I have always had a passion, particularly since President Roosevelt gave us the charter of the United Nations, and in this country today it seems to me there is a lack of support for those who really want to get the country out of the financial lobbies.
Thom Hartmann: This is a, an extraordinary little book, it’s sort of like Mao’s little book, it’s 41 pages long, a little red book, “Time For Outrage" by Stéphane Hessel. And four million copies it’s sold around the world. How has your book influenced the European, shall we call them revolutions? People in the streets?
Stéphane Hessel : It is, I think it came at a moment where indignation was already very much alive. But it struck also at a moment when the Arab spring started. And they are also forms of indignation against their tyrants and they managed to get them out in a non-violent way. I preach indignation and non-violence. Both I think go together. And what we need is all our European and extra European countries, my book has been translated into 30 different languages. It shows that it comes at a time when people just no longer want to be ridden by forces that they do not really control.
Thom Hartmann: And, we’re talking with Stéphane Hessel, am I pronouncing everything right here, sir?
Stéphane Hessel : Yes.
Thom Hartmann: Okay. Stéphane Hessel, his book is Time For Outrage, from 12 publishers. And it’s in book stores now. He, sir, your ending chapters, your call for action, basically, is non-violence and a peaceful insurrection. How does that happen?
Stéphane Hessel : Right. Well in some cases during the past century we have had enormous progress through non-violence. I always call on people like Martin Luther King, or like Gorbachev or like Mandela. It is not impossible to achieve a solution to basic problems without violence. But of course the temptation is there. And for instance, in Palestine, there is a temptation to be violent against Israel, just as there is a great temptation for Israel to be terribly violent against Palestine. That is not going to solve this important problem. It is through non-violent negotiations. But they should be supported by the great forces of this world and particularly of this marvelous president that you have elected, Barack Obama, which should have put all his weight behind a solution to the mide near East problem and unfortunately he has been overridden by lobbies such as the AIPAC and others and therefore he is not doing what he should be doing to solve the Palestinian problem.
Thom Hartmann: You have in your lifetime watched a number of revolutions. From the revolutions in Russia, revolutions in Europe, the Fascist revolution, the overthrow of Fascism. What’s, in the minute we have left, sir. What are your thoughts on the near future, the coming future?
Stéphane Hessel : I think we are on the threshold of a completely new human society. A global society which will understand that competition, that selfishness, egotism, is no longer the way to treat the very serious problems that are in front of us. Problem of great property and enormous riches, problem of the earth being overexploited. These are problems that can be treated only with all governments together. We have an instrument for that which is the United Nations. It has its headquarters here in this very beautiful city of New York and I wish that the United States would support that instrument much more strongly than it has done in the past years. Then we are able to find a new form of compassionate interdependent solidarity of all the 193 nations working together.
Thom Hartmann: You sound like Dagg Hammarskjöld in that regard. It’s, thank you so much. Time For Outrage, Stéphane Hessel. Thank you so much for being with us, sir.
Stéphane Hessel : Thank you.
Thom Hartmann: Very good speaking with you.
Stéphane Hessel : Goodbye.
Thom Hartmann: Bye.
Transcribed by Suzanne Roberts, Portland Psychology Clinic.
