Thom Hartmann: And greetings my friends, patriots, lovers of democracy, truth and justice, believers in peace, freedom and the American way. Thom Hartmann here with you. Broadcasting live from Washington DC and today a special treat for Thursday. Typically on Friday we have Senator Sanders on but he’s on with us today. Tomorrow I’ll be in New York, whole long story, Carl Wolfson is going to be filling in for me. And so it’s our Brunch with Bernie hour, our first hour here. Senator Sanders, welcome.

Bernie Sanders: Good to be with you, Thom.

Thom Hartmann: And let me just let our listeners know, after you and I just kind of go over the news of the day you will be taking questions. It’s our national weekly town hall meeting with Senator Sanders. The toll free numbers are 866-987-THOM, and 866-745-2667, five lines for each one and you can check out Bernie’s website over at Sanders.Senate.gov. Bernie, what’s on your mind today, what’s at the top of your list.

Bernie Sanders: Well there’s obviously a lot that’s going on. Congress is out of session, we’re in the middle of a campaign. What I’d like to do for a minute Thom is maybe decode, if I could, some of the Republican rhetoric that is out there. Because I think there is, they’re speaking in a code language which if you break through it, I think the American people will understand that what they’re saying doesn’t mean a whole lot. These people are criticizing Barack Obama because the economy is not doing well. And they are the economy of jobs. Republicans equals jobs.

I want everybody to remember that during the 8 years that they had, when Bush was president, they lost, L-O-S-T, 600 thousand private sector jobs. 5 million good paying manufacturing jobs were lost, 30% of all of our manufacturing jobs. Median family income went down by 2200 dollars. So when these folks tell you that they’re not satisfied, that Obama and the democrats have not done enough, I want you to look back over what happened during that eight year period where the American people, where the American middle class suffered terribly and almost all of the new income that was created went to the top 1 or 2%. So when they talk about economy and they talk about jobs, that’s what their record is.

Furthermore, one of the issues that neither party has done well on, but the Republicans have been worse than the democrats, is this whole issue of outsourcing and our disastrous trade policy. While the democrats have not been as strong as they should be, when you hear Republicans talking about the global economy, the global economy, and they use that word a lot. What they are really talking about is having American workers competing against people all over the world including in China, India, Bangladesh. People who in some cases are making pennies an hour. There was an interesting…

Thom Hartmann: And in some cases they are 12 years old.

Bernie Sanders: That’s right. There was an interesting piece, Sharron Angle, who is the Republican candidate for Senate in Nevada, was bemoaning the fact that we extended unemployment benefits. And what she was saying was look there are jobs out there, yeah these jobs don’t pay a whole lot, but it’s important that people take any job they can get no matter what the wage is. And these, that is why some other Republicans want to do away with the minimum wage completely.

So here’s the overall global scenario. We have unfettered free trade, pushed very, very hard by the Republicans. So you’ve got to compete against people who make 50 cents an hour or a dollar an hour. You don’t have unemployment benefits so as soon as you lose your job, you’ve got to take anything that’s out there, no matter what the wage may be. You do away with the minimum wage and you’re back to paying Americans $3 an hour. Now ultimately, what some of these people really would like is to see wages in this country similar to what they are in China, Mexico and other countries. Now that’s not going to happen. But ultimately that is their economic policy. If you want to work, well hey you’ve got to understand Bangladesh people are working for 21 cents an hour. You want a job? Well hey what about 25 cents an hour. Now that obviously is not going to happen. But when you have people talking about unfettered free trade, competing against people who make 50 cents an hour, doing away with the minimum wage as some are talking about. You add all that together, that means wages continue to decline in the United States.

There was just a piece in the paper, in Detroit. General Motors assigned a contract with the UAW. And the UAW was forced in a sense to sign this contract but what is happening is that your senior workers are making $28 an hour. Your people with less seniority are now making half of that, $14 an hour. Now working in Detroit, building automobiles, used to be the golden standard for blue collar workers in America. So if the gold standard has now declined to $14 an hour, what kind of wages do you think are going to be paid to non-union workers all over this country. $14 will be at the very highest level. And then you’re looking about outsourcing white collar jobs to India and so forth.

So what the end result of all of this is the middle class continues to decline, almost all of the income, new income being created goes to the top 1%. You end up with a situation where the top 1% now earns 23% of all income earned in America. Huge increase. In the ‘70s I think it was 8%. In the ‘80s and ‘90s it was 16%. Now it’s 23% going to the top 1%. The top 1/10 of 1% earns 11% of income. Then you translate what’s going on right now.

You’re looking, I get a lot of calls in my office from people on Social Security who are upset that they’re not getting a COLA this year. Last year I worked very hard on the floor to at least get people a one time $250 check for seniors and for disabled vets. We got 47 votes. We had one Republican supporting us, and we had, we lost some Democrats as well, we only had 47 votes. I’m going to try that again. Contrast what’s happening to seniors who in fact are paying more for healthcare and prescription drugs which is where they’re spending their money, contrast that to what’s going on on Wall Street. Where our friends, the crooks on Wall Street who helped cause this horrendous recession are now making more money than they have ever made before.

Thom Hartmann: Yeah, 144 billion in bonuses was the headline day before yesterday in the Financial Times, that they’re planning on taking. And the European Union is saying we’re not going to put up with this. They’re instituting laws that severely limit the bonuses that these banksters can pay themselves.

Bernie Sanders: But, the Republicans, now here’s the other decoding language. The Republicans say, “Get government off of our backs, let business do what it does best.”

Thom Hartmann: Right.

Bernie Sanders: Well, you have to understand what that means. That means that the deregulation of Wall Street which helped cause this great recession and the thievery that we saw there is a direct result of deregulation. When you have companies dumping crap poisons into rivers and lakes or polluting the air, that’s called deregulation. That’s getting government off the backs of business. Of course you want sensible regulations, sometimes regulations do not make any sense. But to say that we want deregulation in the extreme degree, which many of these Republicans do, means more Wall Street, more environmental disasters like BP.

So I think what is important to understand is that beyond, behind a lot of the rhetoric coming from the Republicans is clearly a continued attack on the middle class and working families with the goal of giving more wealth and power to large corporations and more tax breaks and other benefits to the very wealthiest people in this country at a time when we already have the most unequal distribution of wealth and income of any major country.

Now what some of us are fighting for, is exactly the opposite of that. We think that it’s important not to see all income or almost all income and wealth go to the people on top but to see the middle class grow. And we think that that’s the right thing to do. A: because it is the right thing to do because millions and millions of people today are hurting. People have lost their jobs. People have lost their homes. And that’s the right thing to do. And from an economic point of view, those are the people who are going to restart the economy when they have money to spend.

Thom Hartmann: Absolutely. Demand drives economies. And demand comes from wages. So well said. Senator Bernie Sanders with us, he’s taking your calls up next on our Brunch with Bernie, special Thursday. 866-987-THOM, 866-745-2667.

**Commercials**

Thom Hartmann: 20 minutes past the hour, welcome back. Thom Hartmann here with you. It’s our Brunch with Bernie hour, Senator Bernie Sanders, a day early. And, but just as fine as always. Bernie, ready to pick up some phone calls here?

Bernie Sanders: Let’s do it.

Thom Hartmann: Okay let me just put out the numbers one more time. 866-745-CONS, that’s 745-2667, and 866-987-THOM. And James in Jacksonville, Florida, you’re on the air with Senator Bernie Sanders.

James:Hey how’s it going, Mr. Sanders.

Bernie Sanders: Good.

James: I’m a carpenter, Local 1, Chicago, Illinois, the very first union in America started by Peter J. McGuire in 1881 which brought us weekends, public schools, a lot of things that, you know, we also died at Haymarket Square and stuff like that. We witnessed over the last two years, everybody always go back to say the last 8 years, the last 8 years, the last 8 years. We need to get off the last 8 years because it’s been going on since Ronald Reagan. He started busting, when he busted the air traffic controllers, now these knuckleheads are going after the teachers. I mean of all people, teachers. Firemen, fire people. I mean this is crazy. The police force. They’re calling them socialists. Unions, this and that. But I would like to issue a challenge to all of those crazy right wing people out there. You’re going to go after unions, go after the real unions, that’s IBEW, and that’s International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, the Labor Union, the Carpenter’s Union, Mill Rights, Fair builders, bridge and deck carpenters, power drivers, I mean it goes on and on and on. We’re pretty much quiet, we lay back in the curtain. You know people go after the Food Service Worker’s Union and those are different kind of unions. But the real unions that built this country that made this country strong, are the labor, the real labor unions. And I guarantee you when they try to mess with us, it’s going to be on for real. And that’s my comment.

Bernie Sanders: James, thank you, thank you very much for that excellent lesson in history. And there are a couple of point that James made that I want to just reiterate. Number 1, a lot of people, especially young people, take some of the benefits that we have achieved as a country just for granted. The idea with James is talking about is a 40 hour work week. The idea that we have eliminated child labor. The idea that there is a minimum wage. The idea that people get time and a half when they work for overtime. The idea that workers have health and safety protection on the job. These things did not come by accident. They came because working people in unions stood up and fought for them, legislation was passed and millions of people enjoy that legislation. So I think James’s point is an excellent point.

Clearly one of the reasons that the middle class is in decline today is that for a variety of reasons, starting with Reagan, unions have been under all kinds of attacks. Very hard for workers to join a union, because the NLRB for many years, the National Labor Relations Board, has been so pro-company, pro-business, that many decisions that have been made by them have made it hard for workers to come together. But I think James’s point is right on. We need to grow the union movement, the union movement has got to be militant, has got to stand up, and help us fight for America that represents the working people not just the wealthy and the powerful.

Thom Hartmann: You know, Bernie, I just got an AHA listening to James, something that I had not realized. You’ll recall during the presidential primaries that, and leading up to it but in particular the primaries, the commentators on the right, Rush Limbaugh and others. They were into misogyny. They were into trashing women, particularly Hilary Clinton, so badly. They went after Barbara Boxer, they went after Nancy Pelosi, using things like how they look, how they dress, all this kind of things. And they never trash men that way, but they trashed women that way. And it just suddenly hit me, the unions that these right wingers have been going after have been the unions that traditionally have a larger female membership. The teachers union, the nurses union. And what James was saying come on after the unions that have traditionally large male membership, we will kick you guys back, you know, where it counts. And I just, you know it’s another example of Republicans going after women.

Bernie Sanders: Well I know some women in the trade union movement. They’re pretty tough as well. And I think all of the unions have got to stand together. We are fighting for our lives, and the Republicans understand, you know you can go after this group, you go after, divide, divide, divide. And the end result is that whether you’re union or non-union, you’re going to see your wages going down, your benefits going down. And we’ve got to stand together. So I appreciate what James had to say.

Thom Hartmann: Cathy in Los Angeles. You’re on the air with Senator Bernie Sanders, and thanks for listening to KTLK.

Cathy:Hello?

Thom Hartmann: Hello Cathy, you’re on the air.

Cathy: Well I’m from Riverside, but that’s okay.

Thom Hartmann: Oh okay, close enough.

Cathy: I wanted to know how long will it take the healthcare bill to get to the Supreme Court?

Bernie Sanders: You mean that there are attorneys general around the country who are arguing the constitutionality of certain provisions they want to take into the Supreme Court?

Cathy: Yeah.

Bernie Sanders: I have no idea. I have no idea how long. I don’t think that that effort will be successful, I hope it is not successful. I voted for the healthcare reform bill, I understand that it is not as strong as it should be. I am a proponent of a Medicare for all. But there have been a lot of dishonest statements made about the healthcare reform bill, which are just simply not true. Among other attributes of this bill, there are 30 million more Americans who are going to have health insurance. We put a lot of money into disease prevention so we’re doing a better job keeping people healthy rather than just treating them when they are sick. I was very active in making sure that we doubled the number of community health centers in America so we’re going to have 40 million people rather than 20 million.

Thom Hartmann: When are those going to kick in, Bernie?

Bernie Sanders: Those are kicking in right now. In the state of Vermont we got some money which is going to expand four of our community health centers. And in Vermont we’re leading the country about 19% of our people now use community health centers for primary healthcare, dental care, low cost prescription drugs, mental health counseling. They’re going to be a real asset all over this country in rural America and in urban America as well.

Thom Hartmann: Wow. That’s absolutely spectacular. We’re talking with Senator Bernie Sanders, actually it’s our Brunch with Bernie hour a day early here on Thursday. Our telephone numbers, 866-987-THOM, 866-745-2667. Used to be our old conservative call in line, 745-CONS. It helps you remember it. Both lines have five lines allocated to them. And they’re both full. We’ll be right back with your calls.

**Commercials**

Thom Hartmann: Yeah we do, we do want to change the world and we’re doing it. One person at a time, one vote at a time, one congressional district at a time, step by step. Welcome back. Thom Hartmann here with you. Bernie Sanders with us on our Brunch with Bernie hour a day early. And picking up your calls. You’re still there Bernie, we’re all ready to go?

Bernie Sanders: Yeah, right here.

Thom Hartmann: Okay. Let’s see here, Rob in Napa. Hey Rob, you’re on the air with Senator Sanders.

Rob: Yeah hi Thom, hi Bernie.

Bernie Sanders: Hi Rob.

Rob: Listen, you just used the word criminal twice, you used the word dishonest a couple of times. We just went through with the Bush administration eight years of kleptocracy compounded by lies. Cap that at the end of 2008, I just saw the movie Wall Street, it’s an excellent movie. You know what they did and the fact that these people that run these rating agencies, you know Moody’s and others, all these people are still walking in the streets. And the media, which we know now has absolutely no credibility, compound that with the Supreme Court which is bought and paid for by corporate, given the Citizen’s United decision. We are living in an Orwellian word. And I am asking you, Bernie, you know these senators that you work with on a daily basis, most of them are also bought and paid for. How is this going to work? How do we stand a chance for you guys to regain credibility?

Bernie Sanders: Rob, well here’s the point. It’s not for, you know, us guys, I don’t disagree with much of what you said. The situation is very dire. The option is not to throw your hands up and give up. The option is to educate and to organize. I don’t have magical solutions, you’re right. With this Citizen’s United decision, which I hope most listeners understand, made a horrendous financial, campaign finance situation much, much worse.

Big money was always, always able to influence elections but now as Rob mentions a bad situation is made much worse. As we speak tens and tens of millions of dollars are going to radio stations and television stations, putting ads on the air, trying to defeat people who are prepared to stand up to the big money interests in this country. Whether it is Wall Street or the oil companies or the military industrial complex.

And these campaign contributions do not have to be disclosed. Where are they coming from? Who knows. Are they coming from companies that are owned in part or in majority by foreign interests? We don’t know that. So Rob’s point is a good point. Wall Street guys, the crooks on Wall Street, not only are they free, not only are they not in jail, they’re making more money than they ever did.

The answer is to be smart, Rob. Is to think it through, how we go from here to there. The first thing we’ve got to do is make sure that we don’t see right wing extremists take over the United States House of Representatives and the Senate. You may be unhappy with what’s going on right now but let me tell you, you’re going to be a lot more unhappy if you have some of these people who want to eliminate the minimum wage, want no extended unemployment compensation, want more unfettered free trade.

So we’ve got to concentrate our efforts over the next three weeks to make sure that that does not happen. After that, what we have got to do is elect people and put pressure on people to fight for a progressive agenda, to help good people get elected to office, and protect those people. It ain’t easy, it ain’t easy. But real struggle never, ever is. But we don’t have the option of giving up.

Thom Hartmann: Amen. Bob in Pittsburgh. Hey Bob, you’re on with Senator Bernie Sanders.

Bob: Hi. Bernie I always wonder, after someone makes a speech on the Senate floor or there’s a vote on something very controversial, like extending unemployment or tax breaks for the small businesses. Are any of these obstructionist Republicans embarrassed? I mean what reaction do you get from them. Are they smug? Can they look you in the eye or anything?

Bernie Sanders: No, they’re not embarrassed and they look at the world very differently than you do, Bob. They believe, they hang out with wealthy people. There was a, there’s a senator from Oklahoma named Tom Coburn. Now if I understood what he said at a town meeting correctly, basically, he believes that only wealthy people should be allowed to run for office. His statement was to the effect that if people took a pay cut, if people earned more money by serving in Congress, that’s wrong and they shouldn’t be allowed to do that. Only wealthy people should be allowed to serve.

So these people hold an ideology which essentially ignores the needs of working families and lower income people. They’ve got a whole lot of money from corporate America and the wealthy. Their world view is shaped by that reality. So when they are voting to not extend unemployment benefits, what they are saying is that it would be better for workers to go back to work at very low wages, even if they’re lucky enough to find a job. And if they’re not, that’s the way life goes. They hold a belief and an ideology that clearly reflects the interests of the wealthy and the powerful and they think that that is the right ideology. So no, Bob, there is no shame.

Thom Hartmann: Armand in Tampa, Florida, you’re on the air with Senator Bernie Sanders.

Armand:Thanks Bernie. First, the vampire austerity tax, the VAT tax. They’re saying that if that goes in, it’ll further devalue the buying power of our dollar by 50% which will finish off and devastate what’s left of the middle class. And one other point, the healthcare bill, the insurance companies are giving them all the money and what they’re going to do is strip out everything. What the Republicans, their plan is, to strip out everything but the mandates and increasing the fines. Everything else is gone.

Thom Hartmann: Thank you, Armand.

Bernie Sanders: Well Armand, your point about the healthcare industry, putting a lot of money into this election in order to defeat all of those proposals which held them accountable is exactly right. I believe that the VAT tax is a regressive form of taxation. I believe that at a time when in 2005, which is the most recent statistics that we have, one out of four major corporations who collectively made a trillion dollars in profits paid zero in taxes.

Last year Exxon Mobil made 19 billion in taxes, made 19 billion in profits and not only did they not pay anything in taxes, they got a refund from the IRS. You’ve got all these guys stashing their money in the Cayman Islands and in Bermuda in order to avoid paying their taxes. I think you need a progressive tax system which says to the wealthiest people, the most profitable corporations, you’re Americans and you’re going to have to help contribute to make sure that our country goes forward. So I believe in progressive taxation not regressive taxation.

Thom Hartmann: Ginger in Portland. Hey Ginger, or in Oregon, listening on KPOJ.

Ginger: Good morning, yes, yes, actually McMinnville. I wanted to share a story earlier when I just tuned in on my way to work you were talking about unions and NLRB. And some 30 years ago my husband worked for Evergreen Helicopters, Evergreen Aviation here in McMinnville. And he tried to form a union. He actually had union meetings at the House and 30 some employees signed union cards and within a couple of weeks all 30 got fired. And it was, they said economic layoffs, of course. NLRB came in and was gung ho about you know this is an injustice and we’ll get you all, you know we’ll fight for you. But as the weeks passed we heard less and less and they decided not to fight for that.

Thom Hartmann: This was during the Reagan years?

Ginger: It was, yeah. Let’s see, ‘80, ‘81. ‘81.

Thom Hartmann: Yeah.

Bernie Sanders: Yeah. Well Ginger, I mean, thank you for relaying that story. And that is what has gone on for decades and what’s going on today. And so you go up to a worker and say you want to form a union and that man or woman might say yeah I really do but you know what I need this job and I don’t want to get fired. And they understand this stuff. And what we need is a strong NLRB to protect workers who are exercising their constitutional right to associate and to form a union. But Ginger, the story that you have just said has taken place from one end of this country to the other and that is why we need labor law reform.

Thom Hartmann: Bonnie in Michigan, listening on Sirius. You’re on the air with Senator Bernie Sanders.

Bonnie: Hello there, this is Bonnie from Michigan. I am, and thank you for taking my call. I’m calling because I overheard a caller talking to, or talking about the Congress voting no or the obstructionists voting no and if they feel guilty about their vote. I just wanted to tell you that years ago I was a precinct delegate for the Republican party in Michigan. And I was at a Michigan convention and we were voting on various bills or ideas, agenda items, whatever. And I voted no on some of the issues and it went against the grain so to speak. So I was literally chastised for that. I mean I was actually told, look, we’re all voting yes, you must vote yes. So do they still do that in Congress today?

Bernie Sanders: Well Bonnie you make, you ask a good question and you know I’m not a member of the Republican caucus so I can’t honestly tell you what goes on behind closed doors. But what I can say is that Mitch McConnell who is the Republican leader, from Kentucky, has done a good job enforcing discipline on all Republicans. Occasionally what happens, you have some Republicans, sometimes it’s the senators from Maine or maybe Voinovich, and they put a lot of pressure on these people, a whole lot of pressure, to vote with the majority, no question about that.

Thom Hartmann: It’s our Brunch with Bernie Hour, Senator Bernie Sanders on the line with us taking your calls. Stick around. 866-987-THOM, 866-745-2667. Check out Bernie’s website, Sanders.Senate.gov. My website, Thomhartmann.com and my new book, “Rebooting the American Dream” is out.

**Commercials**

Thom Hartmann: Brunch with Bernie, here on the Thom Hartmann Program, our national town hall meeting with Senator Sanders. And David, in Keene, New Hampshire, listening on KZBK. Hey David, welcome to the program, thanks for calling.

David: Hi. Senator Sanders, I was going to ask you, you’re like a socialist or a democratic socialist or something, right?

Bernie Sanders: Yes.

David: Do any of the other senators give you a hard time because everyone knows they all you know socialism is like horrible and everything like that?

Bernie Sanders: No. No. I get along, I am in the democratic caucus, I have many friends there. Before I was in the Senate for the last four years I was in the House for 16 years. And you know I think you’ve got to stand on your own two feet. And what I do is fight for legislation, pass a lot of it, work with people on issues where we’re in agreement, disagree with people where we’re in disagreement. But no, I get along pretty well now. But I should tell you that among, you know, some of the right wing Republicans, I’m not their favorite guy.

Thom Hartmann: Surprise. David in Ernest, Emerst, Mass?

David: Amherst, Massachusetts.

Thom Hartmann: Oh Amherst.

David: But I live in Vermont and I’m a Vermont voter. And I was calling to talk about the Citizen’s United decision because I was really frustrated when I went to donate to a local candidate, Peter Shumlin who is running for governor of Vermont and I could only donate two thousand dollars to him.

Thom Hartmann: Because you’re a human being.

David: But that all over the country, because I’m a human being. And all over the country these corporations are donating millions to candidates and as a single person I can only donate two thousand. And I think that is absolutely ridiculous.

Bernie Sanders: Well, of course it is, David. It’s excellent for making that that point. And I am working with Peter Shumlin by the way and we hope that he is going to become Vermont’s next governor. But David makes the point that here is a human being, who wants to contribute money to a candidate, this candidate is running for governor under Vermont state law but it would be the same under federal law. He could only contribute a certain amount of money to a candidate running for Congress or the Senate. And yet if you are a corporation you can contribute unlimited amounts of money and no one knows who you are. David has to list who he is, what his occupation is, where he lives. But if you are a multinational corporation, not a problem. You can just contribute as much as you want and nobody has to know who are you are.

Thom Hartmann: Well technically you can’t, they can’t contribute it to the campaign but they can spend it in a way that helps the campaign.

Bernie Sanders: Right. They can contribute, right, to the campaign’s efforts for all intents and purposes.

Thom Hartmann: Yeah. Functionally. Yep, absolutely. It’s bizarre. Steve, in Washington state, you’re on the air with Senator Bernie Sanders.

Steve: Oh hi Bernie. Senator, I would suggest that smart politics would be to let the Bush tax cuts expire, no matter what you have to do, let them expire on December 31st. Then on the 1st of January or whenever you come back from Christmas break, first thing, propose a middle class tax cut to replace the one that they would be losing and dare the GOP to vote against it.

Bernie Sanders: An interesting thought. It’s an interesting thought. It’s part of the strategy, my fear is that our Republican friends could do just that and do away with tax breaks that the middle class really needs. That’s the negative to your idea but it is an interesting idea. Let them say they’re only interested in supporting tax breaks for the rich and we’ll be willing to let the tax breaks for the middle class disappear. Interesting idea, Steve.

Thom Hartmann: Todd, in Washington state, you’re on the air with Senator Bernie Sanders. Todd?

Todd: Oh hello!

Thom Hartmann: Hey you’re on.

Todd: Good morning, thank you gentlemen for taking my call and Thom thank you for this forum, I really appreciate it.

Thom Hartmann: Thank Bernie.

Todd: Thank you Bernie. You know, Gentlemen, I received an email from my father just several days ago which states the existence of a newly created realty tax of 3.8% on the sale of a home which is included in the healthcare bill. It is slated to go into effect around 2013 or after 2013. Can you expound upon that?

Bernie Sanders: Yes. To the best of my knowledge, that’s totally untrue. Period.

Thom Hartmann: Yeah. This is one of those viral emails that is going around.

Bernie Sanders: You know we get stuff, it comes to our office, why did Congress stay up all night and raise their wages. I mean these are just, it’s just not true. So there are a lot of falsehoods, you know with the internet, and people can do that. And so there are a lot of lies that are going on right now and I think that’s one of them.

Thom Hartmann: Tom in California, hey Tom you’re on the air.

Tom: Hi, I’m going to try to make this quick. I think a lot of people that talk about anti-minimum wage pundits and stuff, they’re stuck in the past as far as cost and stuff go. I mean seriously speaking. And then the other thing is the cost of tests for the healthcare system and stuff, 98 dollars for an MRI in Japan versus 1500 dollars here, what’s the difference. And the other thing is I just want to make something really clear. I think that the democrats, after the midterms, have to be very clear about what it is they stand for, they have to communicate it clearly and it struck me that why not do what they do on some shows and refute some of these guys, these conservatives’ positions with video where they’re saying the opposite.

Bernie Sanders: Well Tom, I think all of your points are well taken. I mean there is a reason why we end up spending almost twice as much as other countries around the world for healthcare and there’s a lot of profiteering that takes place within our system. In terms of the democrats getting their message out, one of the problems is, over the years the Republicans have done a far, far, far better job in creating the right wing echo chamber of Fox TV, and of the right wing talk shows. So every single day, in our world, there are a whole lot of people listening to Thom Hartmann and Ed Schultz and Amy Goodman and others. There are many, many, many more listening to these corporate sponsored right wing shows and Rupert Murdoch’s television network. And I think that is a huge issue that has got to be dealt with. Because if the American people can’t hear both sides of an issue, and they’re only consistently hearing right wing dogma, the country faces some serious problems.

Thom Hartmann: So well said. Senator Bernie Sanders. Bernie thanks so much for being with us today.

Bernie Sanders: Good to be with you, Thom.

Thom Hartmann: Always great. And be sure to check out Bernie’s website, Sanders.Senate.gov. He’s got just a wealth of information there as well as a really great newsletter. We’ll be back with the question has America become a third world country? And if so, why?

Transcribed by Suzanne Roberts, Portland Psychology Clinic.