Thom Hartmann: Well, are they still going to Burn the Quran down in Florida? Doctor Terry Jones, the pastor of the Dove World Church, DoveWorld.org, back on the show with us. Pastor Jones, welcome back.

Terry Jones: Thank you, thank you.

Thom Hartmann: Thank you for joining us again. A week or two ago when you were on here I suggested to you that you were basically doing the work of Osama Bin Laden for him. It appears that General Petraeus and Secretary of State Clinton agree with me. I’m wondering if you’re going to continue with this planned Koran burning on 9-11?

Terry Jones: Yeah, as of right now we are planning to continue on.

Thom Hartmann: How do you respond, Der Spiegel this morning broke a story, "Islamophobe's Past in Germany: Terry Jones Accused of 'Spiritual Abuse' at..." Köln, Cologne is how you would say it in English, Church. Is it true that you ran a church in western Germany until last year when your parishioners kicked you out?

Terry Jones: Until a couple of years ago I was a missionary there in Germany for quite a long time, yes. You know what, people have asked me, people have been asking over and over what would it take for us not to burn the Koran.

Thom Hartmann: Mhm.

Terry Jones: I’ve given that actually a lot of thought, I’m probably going to say this today in a press conference here. It seems as though that the majority of Americans do not want the mosque in New York, that is what I understand, that is what some of the polls that I have…

Thom Hartmann: Yeah, but you’re in Florida. You know, sir, this Der Spiegel article points out that you and you and your wife were…

Terry Jones: My proposal is that I will talk about the past, it just is a deflection of what we’re doing right now, it has nothing to do with right now.

Thom Hartmann: Well I think the past is pretty important, because I think it’s a reflection of what you’re doing right now.

Terry Jones: Actually not important.

Thom Hartmann: The, Mr. Schäfer, the government official from Germany, said that you are a fanatic who is courting global media attention because you can’t cope with the immense loss of power and significance of being kicked out of an 800 member church in Germany and having only a 50 member church in the United States. Your response?

Terry Jones: Our proposal is, as I said, I’ve been asked many times, and our proposal would be if they would not build the mosque in New York, what the American people do not want, we will not burn the Koran which is also what I assume most Muslims do not want us to do.

Thom Hartmann: The Germans are suggesting in Der Spiegel, in today’s edition of Der Spiegel, that the reason that you’re doing this is just to get publicity for yourself, self-aggrandizement. That you and your wife suggested to your parishioners that you were divinely appointed by the lord, “meaning opposition was a crime against the lord,” opposition to you. And that you were asking money in an increasingly and insistent manner, this led to your congregants basically kicking you out of the country. Why should anybody take you seriously?

Terry Jones: As I said, I will talk about the 9-11, I mean I don’t want to be rude, but…

Thom Hartmann: Feel free.

Terry Jones: But I actually will not continue to do the interview. We are dealing with what we are doing right now on 9-11. I realize that a lot of stories try to come out, there’s been a lot of stories spread about me, that’s always a typical way because if you can make me look like some type of a …

Thom Hartmann: Jim Jones?

Terry Jones: …a monster or whatever then of course the message that I have is no longer valid. So actually I will not go there. If you want to discuss 9-11, that will be fine. If not, I guess we will have to end this conversation.

Thom Hartmann: In other words, you don’t have a response to the Germans saying that you’re basically doing this grandstanding because it’s just, it’s your psyche, you’ve got to be in the public light.

Terry Jones: I have no response, no. I don’t have a response, no. I have a response to the issues concerning all of 9-11.

Thom Hartmann: And you don’t have a response to my suggestion that you are doing Osama Bin Laden’s work for him by riling up and putting our soldiers at risk by riling up the Muslim world?

Terry Jones: We definitely feel that we are not doing his work, I can respond to that. That has to do with what we’re doing right now. We definitely, we definitely feel that we are not doing that, just the opposite. We are revealing the radicalness of Islam. I believe we are pointing the finger at the wrong person and I don’t know why we do that in America. If violence comes out of this it’s because it’s the nature of Islam. It is their violent nature. And possibly not as many people are against us as you think. We get e-mails, we got a phone call yesterday from a retired green beret…

Thom Hartmann: I’m sure there are a lot of spiritual bigots in this country, sir.

Terry Jones: … delta who said he is convinced, let me tell you this story. This is really, this is really sad. He said, 'I am convinced that the special forces are behind you'. That’s what he said.

Thom Hartmann: Well he’s wrong, he’s wrong. You’ve got the general…

Terry Jones: He said because… but listen to this…

Thom Hartmann: General Petraeus, the guy who’s the leader in Iraq and who is, I mean or Afghanistan. I mean if anybody would know, he would, saying, you, sir, are putting the lives of American troops at risk. You, sir, will have blood on your hands if you do this. And then you know as I said, Der Spiegel says the reason you’re doing it is that you can’t cope with the immense loss of power and significance because you got thrown out of your church in Germany.

Terry Jones: Did you call me because you wanted me to say something or did you just want to talk to me. Just want to preach at me. This guy said he was in Yugoslavia when the Muslims did their ethnic cleaning, I don’t know why we ignore these things, I don’t know why we wash them over, I don’t know we try, we get on the other side. He said he was there, he said they burned down 150 churches, how come people are not yelling. I’m going to burn a Koran. So why are people not yelling about that. He said he stood there as a three story building filled with Christians, a hospital building, was burnt to the ground and those people died.

Thom Hartmann: And was condemned and Slobodan Milošević stood in the dock at the Hague and went to prison for that. I mean …

Terry Jones: Our government would not let them do anything. They stood there.

Thom Hartmann: What are you talking about?

Terry Jones: Yes, that’s exactly what he said.

Thom Hartmann: Bill Clinton got attacked for going, no, let’s get…

Terry Jones: So, we are just saying Islam is bad, radical Islam is bad and that’s what we are pointing to. There is nothing wrong with what we are doing…

Thom Hartmann: So all Muslims, yeah. Sir, you are doing Osama Bin Laden’s work, you are doing the Devil’s work and I think it’s tragic and frankly it appears to me that Der Spiegel is right and you’re some kind of sociopath. I’m just astounded. But I thank you for coming on our program.

Terry Jones: OK, thank you. Goodbye.

Thom Hartmann: Terry Jones, DoveWorld.org.

Transcribed by Suzanne Roberts, Portland Psychology Clinic.