Thom Hartmann: Well, Bill O’Reilly says that if the Montana sex ed program is passed, that 2nd graders in Montana are not going to be able to discuss, nor anybody for that matter, going to be able to discuss Jeffrey Dahmer because he was a gay cannibal. Oh my god we can’t have that!

Dr. Judith Reisman is on the line with us. She is the, excuse me I just lost this, no, she is the scientific advisor for the California Protective Parents Association, and the author of several books, including her latest which is called "Sexual Sabotage," which is about the Kinsey report, if I skimmed through it correctly. Dr. Judith Reisman, welcome to the program.

Judith Reisman: Hi Thom, nice to be here. Thank you so much.

Thom Hartmann: Thank you. You are just plain old, flat out, flipped out about teaching sex ed to kids in Missouri. Have you not looked at the studies that show that when kids, excuse me in Montana. Have you not looked at the studies that show that when kids are not taught sex ed that they tend to have more sex, earlier sex, and more dangerous sex?

Judith Reisman: Yeah, well, I’ve looked at pretty much all of those studies and I also am very well aware of where the sex ed came from and who’s constructed those studies and why they’re simply bogus information that’s been perpetrated for, well, now about 40 years, coming out of the Kinsey Institute in Indiana. Based upon a body of “research” that was fraudulent at it’s outset and that trained people to teach sex education based upon that fraud. We’re looking at Dr. Kinsey’s research, sexual behavior in the human male, you’re looking at…

Thom Hartmann: Kinsey’s dead isn’t he?

Judith Reisman: He’s dead. And all of…

Thom Hartmann: I mean why fight that fight?

Judith Reisman: Yeah he’s dead.

Thom Hartmann: But, I mean, what about looking at like right now that in Uganda when they stopped teaching sex ed and started saying oh you know whatever, we’ll let parents take care of it, AIDs numbers started spiking, when they started teaching sex ed it went down.

Judith Reisman: Oh absolutely not, no, no, no, Thom.

Thom Hartmann: That the red states in America, the poor states, where they tend not to teach sex ed and they don’t have comprehensive sex ed, they have higher rates of unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases.

Judith Reisman: Sorry but when we look back at the period of time when we did not have sex ed or when we had what we call hygiene, sex hygiene, and kids were learning simply about reproduction and they were also learning, don’t have sex ‘til you get married. I mean in the old days, now I’m 75 so see I’m old. But in those years, if you look at our comparison to our data, to today, there’s no comparison. When Kinsey started his research and he was advocating sex education in the schools, it was based on the claim that children are “sexual from birth.” And since they’re sexual from birth, this was the belief system that he advocated, nobody believed it until he came on board.

Thom Hartmann: Actually Sigmund Freud was suggesting that back in 1897.

Judith Reisman: Yeah but Sigmund said we went through this latency period and all that sort of stuff.

Thom Hartmann: But he was saying the same thing.

Judith Reisman: Well yeah and then Kinsey said well yeah Sigmund was right except he was wrong on one thing and that is that there is no latency period and of course Sigmund himself was pretty much stoned half the time, you know.

Thom Hartmann: Well for seven years, yeah he was doing cocaine.

Judith Reisman: Yeah so he was happily walking along so…

Thom Hartmann: No I wrote a book about Sigmund Freud called “Walking Your Blues Away,” that, I’m very familiar with his history.

Judith Reisman: Yeah Siggie, so you know.

Thom Hartmann: But my point is that…

Judith Reisman: So you know the research also by Jeffrey Masson that blew poor Sigmund out of the water as well.

Thom Hartmann: Yeah, no. Sigmund Freud has been discredited and to some extent the Kinsey Report has been discredited. But that’s not the issue. The issue is that when you teach kids…

Judith Reisman: Oh no, no I think you’re wrong.

Thom Hartmann: … about how the human body works,

Judith Reisman: Ah that’s not what they’re teaching, Thom.

Thom Hartmann: and what sexual activity is and what dangerous sexual activity is, then they tend to be more respectful of their bodies and they tend to be more appropriate in their behavior.

Judith Reisman: No, no, no. Look, look around you Thom.

Thom Hartmann: Isn’t this common sense?

Judith Reisman: Thom, look around you. We’ve had sex education spawned by Kinsey and his followers because remember there was no sex education in the United States of America like what we’re talking about until Kinsey formed the Human Sexuality field. Now that field is completely trained by Kinsey. There was no question about that. All his, all the people that are trained in that field came out of the same model.

Thom Hartmann: Are you suggesting Dr. Reisman, that right now what we’re seeing is an explosion of sexual activity among younger children?

Judith Reisman: Well I think we may have noticed that.

Thom Hartmann: Okay yeah I’m agreeing with you.

Judith Reisman: And where did it come from?

Thom Hartmann: I think it is coming from the Internet.

Judith Reisman: Look, I was a kid… Oh come on, come on, come on. If we look at the sex, now give me a break.

Thom Hartmann: Have you looked at the Internet recently? I mean up until two years ago if you googled White House you got a website that actually showed people having intercourse.

Judith Reisman: Thom I know there’s Internet. Excuse me, I’m not just any, the garbage on the Internet, I’m the last person…

Thom Hartmann: I think that we’ve got 6-year-olds who are being exposed to this kind of behavior and they’re thinking 'oh. let’s try that'.

Judith Reisman: Yeah but what happens, how come our sex education was in place 20 years ago and we had massive increases 20 years ago in “illicit” sexual activity.

Thom Hartmann: Because it was the tail end of the invention of the birth control and the legalization of the birth control in the late ‘70s, in the mid ‘70s, that caused the sex…

Judith Reisman: Yeah and so that’s why I urge people to read my book so that they’ll learn how come we got to legalization of widespread sexual activity and…

Thom Hartmann: But all of this is ancient history.

Judith Reisman: No!

Thom Hartmann: Right now Montana is trying to clean this up.

Judith Reisman: Oh Montana is not going to clean that, come on.

Thom Hartmann: They’re trying to say to these young kids, 'you know that stuff that you’re seeing on the Internet, that’s dangerous stuff'.

Judith Reisman: Hey give me a break. When we wanted kids to stop smoking we put those little signs on the cigarette boxes which made…

Thom Hartmann: We showed them pictures of rotten lungs.

Judith Reisman: No, which made, why did they stop smoking? And that was because John Wayne came on TV and said you know I’m dying, I’m dying, and I’m dying from smoking. So the cigarette industry stopped distributing advertisements on TV because that meant that John Wayne had a chance to be on TV. No, no. The reason…

Thom Hartmann: No, it was we passed laws against advertising cigarettes on TV.

Judith Reisman: Wait a minute Thom, give me a break here. Because I only have a few minutes with you. So what I want to say to your public is read that book that I wrote, “Sexual Sabotage.” Why? Because this is a long range problem. This problem began with the sexual revolution, remember that word? The sexual revolution, alright?

Thom Hartmann: You know, Dr. Reisman, I am agreeing with you that people were having more sex because of the sexual revolution because all of a sudden women didn’t have to worry about getting pregnant because of the birth control and this was before AIDs, I was a teenager during that time. I remember it well. And I’m agreeing with you that the kids now are having more sex in more dangerous ways and frankly I think it’s because 6-year-olds are seeing this stuff on the web and I’ve got a problem with that. And I think we should have a .xxx domain and they should be locked up. But…

Judith Reisman: I have a huge problem, I couldn’t agree with you more.

Thom Hartmann: But all of those things in my opinion are strong reasons why we should be teaching children what body parts are and what reproduction is and what sex is.

Judith Reisman: Thom, be realistic. When we go in the classroom with little 6-year-olds…

Thom Hartmann: And you’re saying that we should not be teaching sex ed in schools.

Judith Reisman: This is not sex ed, this is sex miseducation. Look, I was there when my kids were watching the show on drugs, okay. And they were told that this show on drugs, "Marijuana update", was going to help other children to stop smoking and stop using drugs, baloney. When they show…

Thom Hartmann: I have the Missouri standards in front of me…

Judith Reisman: Let me finish…

Thom Hartmann: …that you’re attacking, the Missouri standards say for kindergarten: recognize elements of a healthy relationship, respecting caring boundaries.

Judith Reisman: Oh come on have you read what they’re going to teach those kids?

Thom Hartmann: I have it right in front of me.

Judith Reisman: And they also wanted to give them an opportunity to learn through pornography? They…

Thom Hartmann: No, the word pornography is nowhere in these guidelines.

Judith Reisman: Yes they do, no they call it “sexually explicit material.” Give me a break.

Thom Hartmann: The word pornography is nowhere in these guidelines.

Judith Reisman: No they won’t use, what is “sexually explicit material”? Come on. They’re telling children that they should look at sexually explicit material.

Thom Hartmann: How do you describe a penis and a vagina without being what you’re calling “sexually explicit.”

Judith Reisman: That’s not what they said, they don’t say…

Thom Hartmann: And this is, by the way, not for kindergartners, this is for the 6th graders.

Judith Reisman: … description. Back up, Thom. They don’t say scientific descriptions, scientific images of vagina, now come on.

Thom Hartmann: I have the standards right in front of me, I’m looking at page 45 of the Missouri standards: Functions & Interrelationships of Systems, human sexuality, please tell me which line I should read on the air to share with our listeners what you’re talking about. Because I’ve got it right in front of me and I’m assuming you do too.

Judith Reisman: Alright, I don’t have it in front of me. So where’s the one about the sexually explicit material? I mean…

Thom Hartmann: I have read all of this, I read the whole thing before we went on the air. I don’t find that phrase anywhere.

Judith Reisman: Listen, back up. It is absolutely there and I will have to, I’m not on the air long enough with you but I …

Thom Hartmann: Grade 7, discuss the supreme court decision.

Judith Reisman: I will happy find it and send it back to you because I’ve written on it, alright. So all I’m saying is, people, you’ve got to go back and take another look at how we got to where we are. We are not supposed to be teaching children how to do oral activity? That’s not something …

Thom Hartmann: No but we should describe to adolescent children who are of the age where they can do it what it is and what it’s dangers are. Dr. Judith Reisman, her book is…

Judith Reisman: “Sexual Sabotage.”

Thom Hartmann: Thank you. Her book is “Sexual Sabotage” and her website is DrJudithReisman.com.

Transcribed by Suzanne Roberts, Portland Psychology Clinic.