Thom Hartmann: You know how sometimes you know what you know and sometimes you know what you don’t know and sometimes you don’t know what you don’t know and sometimes what even as the Firesign Theatre says, everything you know is wrong. “You know that you’re wrong but you fear you’re right, you suspect you’re out of sync. You think that you’re out of your mind. Everything you know is wrong.” Is it possible to pray away the gay?

On the one hand the American Psychological Association on August 5, 2009 issued a press release entitled “Insufficient evidence that sexual orientation change efforts work.” The subhead, “Practitioners should avoid telling clients they can change from gay to straight.” They evaluated 83 different studies from 1960 to 2007. Rigorous scientific evaluation. They said, “Our systematic review of the research found that enduring change to an individual’s sexual orientation was extremely unlikely.” And then they said, this is an additional note. “Many religious individuals desire to live their lives in a manner consistent with their values, telecongruence. However, based on stigma and shame, is unlikely to result in psychological well being.” And this, the American Psychological Association.

On the other side, Gayle Haggard is with us, she is the author, the wife of Ted Haggard, the, at one time arguably the most famous powerful evangelical in America and who was involved in a gay relationship and busted for it and busted out of his church and I guess is now selling insurance. And she’s the author of a new book, "Why I Stayed: The Choices I Made In My Darkest Hour" Gayle Haggard, welcome to the program.

Gayle Haggard: Thank you Thom, thank you for having me on.

Thom Hartmann: Thank you for joining us. I’m, this is, first of all, please tell me that you have not moved, you and your husband, from a multi million dollar religious industry into a multi million dollar anti-gay industry.

Gayle Haggard: Well, I can’t say that I ever lived in a multi million dollar religious industry and I know I’m not in a multi million dollar gay industry and one of the reasons I wrote my book was to clear up so many misconceptions and misinformation that was out there regarding us.

Thom Hartmann: Okay, for example.

Gayle Haggard: For example, my husband was never a hateful anti-gay preacher and he really did believe what he was teaching, but common to all of our human experience he wasn’t always able to live up to the ideals that he hoped to and so going through the scandal that we’ve gone through has actually been a very healthy experience for both of us in having to face what he was dealing with and get it out on the table and deal with it head on, together.

Thom Hartmann: Yeah, I’m sure it must have been very, very difficult for both of you, I mean, and I’m sure that all of our listeners can empathize with that. However, in your book, “Why I Stayed,” we’re talking with Gayle Haggard, you’re suggesting, I believe, that essentially your husband is no longer gay. That he has prayed away the gay?

Gayle Haggard: Hey, can we do something that I know you do on your program, can we buck the system here?

Thom Hartmann: What’s that?

Gayle Haggard: Because I think the problem is that we try to push people into categories because by trying to, this is another thing I address in my book, by trying to label him as gay we’re denying his heterosexuality as well and his 28 years at that time with me and now it’s been 31.

Thom Hartmann: So you think he’s bisexual?

Gayle Haggard: Of a really loving healthy, sexual and intimate relationship. So I think we have to accept the fact that our sexuality is far more complex than three categories and be willing to be more understanding and compassionate and respectful of each person’s journey and the decisions that they make that they feel fit their values or what they believe or what they, the kind of life they want to lead.

Thom Hartmann: I absolutely agree with you. And in fact I would even expand that to beyond bisexual people to transgendered people as well and , you know we might want to put a limit at things like bestiality, but which is completely out of the realm of human to human, but the, I am at a somewhat at a disadvantage here Gayle Haggard, because I have not read your entire book. I’ve skipped through it but there is a, as I’m sure you know, and your husband participated in this rather aggressively, this pray away the gay movement in the United States. And the American Psychological Association is very concerned about this and suggests that this can cause significant psychological damage to many individuals. The highest suicide rate in the United States right now is among gay teenagers. There are, a lot of damage is being done, I think, by people who would not embrace what you just said, which is that we are complex people and that sexuality doesn’t necessarily have to exist in one polar extreme or the other. And tell me that your book is consistent with what you just said as opposed to a tool that can be used by the folks who basically want to, you know, bash gay people.

Gayle Haggard: You know, I am totally opposed to bashing anyone. And what I hope my book does is bring a more compassionate approach to trying to trying to understand why we are the way we are and what has caused the human condition that all of us has to deal with in varying forms. And what the Bible really says to us in our human condition. And I believe.

Thom Hartmann: Well now in that context… I’m sorry, finish.

Gayle Haggard: Yes and I believe that my husband was never the way he’s been characterized as being anti-gay.

Thom Hartmann: Well I haven’t characterized him that way.

Gayle Haggard: I don’t know what this pray away gay movement was.

Thom Hartmann: Here’s a question for you then. We’re talking with Gayle Haggard, she’s the author of a new book, “Why I Stayed,” the wife of Ted Haggard, the televangelist, or evangelist, GayleHaggard.org by the way is her website. Is it okay for gay people to be gay, Gayle Haggard?

Gayle Haggard: I think it’s okay for all of us to not be totally where, not to totally live up to the ideals or the ways that God has for us for our design that I believe and that are taught in the scripture…

Thom Hartmann: No but my specific question is…

Gayle Haggard: I think the message of the bible is the fact that all of us have to struggle with our human condition. And …

Thom Hartmann: But are you suggesting that that struggle means that gay people should not engage in gay sexual activity or they should not be allowed to be married or are you embracing gay people as well now?

Gayle Haggard: I’m embracing gay people as human beings that need to be understood and respected. I also…

Thom Hartmann: And allowed to continue to be gay people?

Gayle Haggard: Well, I think we have to deal with people where they are, but I do believe that there are, that in the scripture we find the ways that are higher than our ways that God gives us…

Thom Hartmann: Right, we shouldn’t eat shellfish for example.

Gayle Haggard: Correct.

Thom Hartmann: If we do we should be stoned.

Gayle Haggard: It includes, you know what, you’re talking old testament. The new testament does not say that. The new testament talks about having compassion and recognizing…

Thom Hartmann: I thought Jesus, "I did not come to change the law I came to fulfill it".

Gayle Haggard: That’s right. Well...

Thom Hartmann: But I’m sorry, we only have 30 seconds. Gayle Haggard, you’re just, you’re not giving me a straight answer here. Are you saying that it’s okay for gays to be gay?

Gayle Haggard: Here’s what I know. I am not an expert on these subjects. I don’t know what makes us the way we are, I believe everyone is the way they are for a reason. What my book is about is, it’s a story of faith and family and love and forgiveness that we used in overcoming what seemed to be insurmountable difficulties. And I’m really grateful to be where we are and that we have a loving family that is intact and I believe it was our faith that guided us here.

Thom Hartmann: I wish you well. Gayle Haggard with Angela Hunt wrote the book “Why I stayed, the choices I made in my darkest hour.” Thank you for dropping by.

Gayle Haggard: Thank you.

Thom Hartmann: GayleHaggard.org by the way is her website.

Transcribed by Suzanne Roberts, Portland Psychology Clinic.