Thom Hartmann: John Perkins is with us. Let me grab his book here. This is extraordinary. John, one of my heroes, he’s written some incredible stuff. And "Hoodwinked: An Economic Hit Man Reveals Why The World Financial Markets Imploded-and What We Need To Do To Remake Them". John, welcome.
John Perkins: Thanks Thom. It's great to be here with you.
Thom Hartmann: It is great to have you here with us, John. Why did the world’s financial markets implode? Here’s your sub-title. Give it to us.
John Perkins: Well, you know, I think it’s fair to say that since 1980, and it really started in the seventies, but it really began in 1980, we created a whole new form of capitalism. I call it a mutant viral form of capitalism; predatory capitalism, and its main basis is that business should make profits regardless of the social / environmental cost, businesses shouldn’t be regulated, essentially, and everything should be run by private business, not by government but by business. And this was the theory espoused by Milton Friedman of the Chicago School of Economics, deeply embraced by Ronald Reagan, and actually by every President since, Democrat and Republican alike.
Thom Hartmann: Yeah, absolutely. ... This is, you know, Milton Friedman in the 1930’s, 40’s, the time that he was speaking and writing and trying to achieve fame, was widely regarded in America as a crackpot. Dwight Eisenhower made fun of these economic policies, famously in his letter to his brother Edgar. Richard Nixon didn’t think much of them. Lyndon Johnson obviously dismissed them. Jimmy Carter wouldn’t have anything to do with them. There was a sea change in America with Ronald Reagan, wasn’t there?
John Perkins: Absolutely, you know, even Nixon said, “I’m a Keynesian”, and Keynes's economic theories were very, very different from Friedman’s. Keynes actually believed that, you know, we should be compassionate, and that business should be partly about being compassionate. Yes, make profits, but also protect the environment, and social order. And when Reagan came along, all of that changed.
Thom Hartmann: We’re talking to John Perkins, and the website, by the way John, is johnperkins.org Surprise, surprise.
John Perkins: Right. And it’s on Twitter. Economic_hitman.
Thom Hartmann: Great, Economic_hitman, you can sign up for John’s Twitter feed. And John, in you previous book titled “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man”, you talked about the role that you, and other people like you, had played in helping basically bring under the subservience of transnational corporations a number of countries around the world. To what extent do we no longer have sovereignty in small countries around the world and large, and particularly in the United States? To what extent, you know, the Conservatives have historically been hysterical about the surrender of sovereignty to the United Nations. When we signed the UN treaties we gave again our ability to declare war unilaterally, and that has them all freaked out. Seems to me like WTO, NAFTA, these multilateral agreements, but particularly WTO, is a much larger surrender of sovereignty, and we’ve handed ourselves over. We’re handed our nation and its economic fate and future, and thus really its fate and future in pretty much every other dimension, to these large corporations, and to the economic hitmen who work for them.
John Perkins: No question about it, Thom. You know, I think we’re at a time in history that's similar to when the nation states, excuse me, when the city states became nations. Except today, the nations are losing their importance. The Presidents are losing their importance. So, during most of my lifetime, we could look at the world as this globe with roughly two hundred countries, of which a few have a lot of power, the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union, the United States, but today we might better envision this globe as still roughly two hundred countries, but this big cloud swirling around the globe.
They know no national borders, they listen to no specific sets of laws. These are the big corporations. They control the press around the world, the mainstream press, and they control most of the politicians, by financing campaigns, through bribery and corruption, and through lobbyists. You know, let's remember, there are like thirty-five thousand lobbyists in Washington alone. Most of them work for big corporations. So we're at this time in history where the corporations really have the power.
Thom Hartmann: Thirty-five thousand lobbyists, and there are fewer than four hundred when Ronald Reagan came to power.
John Perkins: Yeah, and in 1980, Thom, we bemoaned the fact that fifty corporations controlled the mainstream press, now it’s six.
Thom Hartmann: Yeah, and control more than ninety percent of everything that people see, hear, or read in the United States. It’s really quite mind-boggling. We’re talking with John Perkins. He’s got a new book out, it’s called “Hoodwinked – An Economic Hitman”, reveals why the world’s financial markets imploded and what we need to do to remake them. Formerly Chief Economist with an international consulting firm, also the author of “Confessions of an Economic Hitman”, and for our listeners here in Portland, Oregon, John, you’ve got a gig here tonight in Portland. You want to mention where and when?
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John, the second part of the subtitle of your book. Your book is called “Hoodwinked”, your brand-new book just out. The sub-title, then, “An Economic Hit Man Reveals Why the World Financial Markets Imploded--and What We Need to Do to Remake Them". What do we need to do to remake them?
John Perkins: Well, Thom, I think the good news is that when we have a global economy, a form of capitalism, that’s controlled by the big corporations, none of us is forced to do anything. This isn’t a military sort of thing. These corporations survive because we buy their goods and services, or our tax dollars buy their goods and services. And they only survive because of that. This gives us a lot of power. I think it’s important for us all to understand that the marketplace is essentially democratic, if we choose to make it such. We force corporations to get out of apartheid policies, to clean up polluted rivers, to get hormones out of cattle, and so on and so forth. We've had a tremendous success there.
Now we need to turn this around and say, “Listen, we’ve got to go from this policy of maximizing profits, regardless of the social and environmental cost, to a new policy of let’s say, go ahead and make profits, but only within the context of creating a sustainable, just, and peaceful world.” I have a two-year old grandson, and as I look at this baby, you know, I think the world is going to be ugly if we stay to the course. But we have the chance to turn it around, and I think we need to understand that the only way my grandson can hope to have a sustainable, just and peaceful world, is if every child, growing up in Bolivia, Botswana, Indonesia, Israel and Palestine, has that same expectation, and it’s realized.
For the first time in history, we’re living on a very, very small, highly inter-related planet, and we need to understand this, and develop a new economy that really looks at this, and is more compassionate, and rather then investing in things that create wars, things that kill people, let’s get these same companies, General Dynamics, Raytheon, let’s take a percentage of our tax dollars, and instead hire them to create systems for cleaning up the terribly polluted waters, and lands, and air of our planet. For helping the starving people of Africa grow crops more efficiently, and have storage and distribution systems. That’s how we’re going to make it a safer and more sustainable world.
Thom Hartmann: John, although our programme is heard and streamed by people all over the world and we're on the air on radio stations that cover about an eighth of the UK, and about a third of Ghana, on the African continent, America really is the fulcrum point. In the minute or so we have left, what can America, and the example for the world historically, what can Americans do to push back against this corporate takeover and reclaim not just political democracy, but economic democracy?
John Perkins: Well, that’s really what the book "Hoodwinked" is about, Thom. It’s hard to summa rise it in a few seconds, but I think the essential point is to recognize that we do have that power, and we need to take it back. We can’t wait for an Obama or any politician or any single individual to do this. We have to remember what Franklin Roosevelt said after meeting with union leaders in the 1930’s. He said to them as they were leaving the White House, “I think you understand that I agree with you. Now go out there and force me to do the right thing.” And I think too many of us, we vote for Obama, and then we sit back and say 'let him take care of the problems'. We have to recognize that in a democracy we have to take care of the problems, and the world is watching. We are still the leader. Let’s assume that leadership role, and create a sustainable, just, and peaceful world.
Thom Hartmann: Brilliantly said. John Perkins, johnperkins.org the website ... his new book, “Hoodwinked" – An Economic Hitman reveals why the world’s financial markets imploded and what we can do about it. Thank you John for dropping by.
John Perkins: My pleasure Thom, thanks for all the great work that you do.
Thom Hartmann: Thank you.
Transcribed by Gerard Aukstiejus.
