Thom Hartmann: Their website, Docs4PatientCare.org, and their mission statement: “Patients, step one: contact your U.S. representative and two senators immediately to voice your opposition to this legislation.” This legislation, their specific criticisms of HR3200 but I’m guessing, well, we’ll find out in a moment. Their contact information is on our action center, very nice website. A lot of details. “Put extra pressure on the blue dogs who are listed,” it says. “Number two: sign up for our newsletter. Three: Sign our petition. Step Four: Join our Facebook page,” etc. Doctor Fred Shessel is a urologist in Portland, as is the president of this group, Hal Scherz. And are the other members also, are you all in the same urology group?

Fred Shessel: Uh no. Actually we’re in Atlanta, Georgia. And we’re from all over the metro area. We also have affiliated chapters in Dallas and Chicago.

Thom Hartmann: Who is funding Docs4PatientCare?

Fred Shessel: We are all self funded. The individual members of Docs4PatientCare send in contributions and that’s the only funding that we have.

Thom Hartmann: Period.

Fred Shessel: Period.

Thom Hartmann: Interesting. You are suggesting that, you say there is no need to rush this legislation through. Are you unaware that 18,000 people are dying every year in this country for lack of health insurance?

Fred Shessel: This proposed legislation is gonna rob you of your ability to make your own decisions about your own healthcare and I think that’s the most dangerous thing about it.

Thom Hartmann: Why would adding a public choice, a public option, option is choice, why would that rob you of your ability to make choices?

Fred Shessel: Well let’s look at what’s involved in that public option, or that public choice. Excuse me, if you don’t mind I’ll actually quote from HR3200 itself. And it establishes something called the National Healthcare Board. And its job, if I can quote this, is “to approve or reject treatment for patients based on the cost per treatment divided by the number of years the patient will benefit from the treatment.” Now to me, that sounds like it’s reducing your life to a cost benefit analysis.

Thom Hartmann: Dr. Fred Shessel, do you honestly, I mean just, honestly here. Do you honestly believe that any health insurance company doesn’t do the same?

Fred Shessel: Yes. I absolutely do. There’s a big difference between what happens when the government rations and anybody else. You know, I’ve seen government rationing. I did a fellowship in England and I worked under their National Health Service. And they have this exact same formula there. And I can tell you, what I saw was people waiting in long lines for long periods of time to get treated and I saw people that couldn’t get treated.

Thom Hartmann: So you’re suggesting, that here we’ve got for example Stephen Hemsley, who is the CEO of United Healthcare. One of the companies that you’re working so hard to protect their economic interests. He’s made ¾ of a billion dollars over the last 4 or 5 years. Um, do you own like for example a share-in or a piece of a separate business, like a urological imaging center or something? Or a practice? Are you defending a business interest here in this?

Fred Shessel: No Thom, as a matter of fact I am not supporting United Healthcare or any other insurance company. My job is to support the patient. You know, when I became a doctor I took an oath to protect you and to take care of you to the best of my ability. And that’s what I do every day. Every day all day. I see patients.

Thom Hartmann: Then why would you be opposed to our, we the people, having our government be a, be one of the ways to distribute the risk of illness, of the cost of illness, dealing with the cost of illness, over the widest number of people?

Fred Shessel: Well again, I’ve told you. Because I think when the government does it they will rob you of your ability to make your own decisions.

Thom Hartmann: Just like the public libraries have put the public book stores or the for profit bookstores out of business?

Fred Shessel: The public libraries don’t have a national healthcare board, nor do they have a council for comparative effectiveness research, nor do they have a national coordinator for health information and technology. You’re really talking about apples and oranges. So.

Thom Hartmann: So you’re saying that if my health insurance is from United Healthcare or any other health insurance company for that matter, that this is absolutely unlimited? That they don’t limit the processes or practices that will be reimbursed?

Fred Shessel: No, what I...

Thom Hartmann: You still there? Dr. Shessel? We have lost Dr. Shessel. So I don’t know. OK. He wants to allow the individual family to be owner of the policy. I really wanted to get to the larger question, what in my mind is the biggest question. Which is why should we have health insurance companies at all? Why should we have them at all? I fail to understand why any for profit business should be allowed to provide primary insurance. Okay, let’s go back to this.

Back to Dr. Fred Shessel. Apparently your cell phone was fading out. It’s quite all right. Let me just ask the big question.

Fred Shessel: Sure.

Thom Hartmann: We have health insurance. United Healthcare made 5 billion bucks last year. 5 billion dollars in profits for their stockholders. That’s 5 billion dollars of healthcare that didn’t get delivered out of premiums that were paid. Why should we allow any for profit health insurance company to offer primary care? Why don’t we do like every other developed country in the world, including Switzerland, which has no national healthcare program. It’s all provided by health insurance companies. Why don’t we do like they do and say it is a crime. You will go to jail, if you do like Steven Helmsley is doing, if you run a for profit operation to provide health insurance?

Fred Shessel: Well let me tell you what’s in the government bill.

Thom Hartmann: No I’m not talking about the government bill. I’m saying why should we even allow the existence of for profit insurance in our country when no other industrialized country on earth allows the existence of these leeches?

Fred Shessel: Well let’s talk about that for just a minute. First of all as you know, 85% of Americans are happy with their healthcare that they’re receiving right now. We have the finest healthcare system in this country.

Thom Hartmann: No we do not, sir, we have one of the worst healthcare systems in the industrialized world. We have the worst outcome in infant mortality, we have the worst outcome in long-term survival. We have, the Veteran's Administration has a higher ranking than private insurance and active military and Tri-care have the very highest rating within the United States of all, and that is socialized medicine.

Fred Shessel: No, sir. That’s absolutely, you’re incorrect about that.

Thom Hartmann: I am not.

Fred Shessel: Let me just explain to you why. Americans right now are blessed in that they can get what they need when they need it.

Thom Hartmann: No they are not. Americans are terrified that if they lose their job or their insurance company decides to cut them off, they’re dead.

Fred Shessel: Because they can receive the finest care from the finest trained physicians in the best equipped hospitals and clinics in the world.

Thom Hartmann: I’m sorry, it’s not.

Fred Shessel: People come from all over the world to be treated here.

Thom Hartmann: There’s a few rich people who come from all over the world to get a few exotic operations here but by and large no. In fact if you look at the trends right now, there are more people leaving the United States for healthcare going to Costa Rica and India to get surgery than there are coming to the United States. People are actually fleeing the United States.

Fred Shessel: Actually that’s not the case. We have students come from every country in the world to be trained in our institutions here.

Thom Hartmann: We have fine medical schools and if you’ve got 200 thousand dollars to pay for it, marvelous. That’s not the point. The point is back to the question. Why should we allow these leeches to exist? These for profit health insurance companies. Why? Why?

Fred Shessel: Because they get the finest care available in the world.

Thom Hartmann: They do not provide care, they write a check. You provide the care. God bless you for being a doctor. You're providing the finest care that you can, I respect that. You are not a health insurance company. The health insurance companies are the leeches between me and you. Why should they exist?

Fred Shessel: I think if you are worried about a leech between me and you or between my patient and me, then you’re talking about the federal government. Because the system that we have now works well for 85% of the people. They’re happy with this, they don’t want to change. You can see that when you go to the town hall meetings.

Thom Hartmann: No, what you see are people who are listening to right wing talk radio and like when you were with, or maybe it was your Hal Scherz, was speaking at the teabag conference meeting there in Atlanta. People get up and say these things and people realized they are being screwed. People know that healthcare sucks in this country and they’re angry about it and then you guys come along and demagogue this issue and say ‘oh its the government.’ It’s not the government, the government is not providing healthcare.

Fred Shessel: It’s not demagoguery. What we’re trying to do is give you facts, and I can tell you the facts that are in this bill that would be contrary to the best cure of patients. I can tell you it will interfere between the patients and doctors.

Thom Hartmann: You don’t think United Healthcare making a 5 billion dollar profit and Steven Helmsley making ¾ of a billion dollars in income off what people in good conscience thought they were paying for health insurance, is destroying healthcare in the United States?

Fred Shessel: Thom, it’s interesting because everybody in this conversation wants to talk about money. Or they want to talk about metrics. Or they want to talk about panels or committees or plans or ideologies. And nobody is talking about the most important person in this entire debate, and that’s you the patient. And that’s what we’re here for. Doctors are advocates for patients, that’s what we always have been.

Thom Hartmann: Then stop defending the insurance companies, they’re not you.

Fred Shessel: I’m not, no. I’m not defending anybody.

Thom Hartmann: They’re your enemy.

Fred Shessel: I’m speaking in favor of the patient. So I’m not defending an insurance company and I’m not attacking anybody. My position is I want what’s best for the patient, I want you to be able to continue to choose your own form of healthcare, and that’s my position.

Thom Hartmann: Okay, well people can read all about it at Docs4PatientCare.org. And Fred Shessel, Doctor Fred Shessel, an Atlanta urologist, along with Hal Scherz, another Atlanta urologist. Thanks for being with us.

Fred Shessel: Thank you Thom.

Transcribed by Suzanne Roberts, Portland Psychology Clinic.